Angle of the bow wave
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
Angle of the bow wave
Folks,
Hello again! I've been off the board for a while, mainly because the boat work needed to catch up with the well-answered questions I'be posted in the past.
Finally I have a new question: For a Cape Dory 36, what would be the angle, (relative to horizontal) of the bow wave at hull speed, both at the bow and at a location about four feet aft of the bow, in the general location of a possible bow thruster?
I know there is probably a well-known formula for this, but I'm not finding it. I've studied my "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design, and I don't believe it's there. I suspect that this is because the question is more about trigonometry than yacht design. I'm not asking anyone to do the calculations for me, unless that just happens to be your cup of tea. I would be happy to know the formula!
Please, this is not a question about yacht handling skill nor philosophy. If your first response is going to be "forget it, real sailors don't need a bow thruster," wait until you are older, and still want to single-hand a CD36 into and out of a tight slip in a crowded yacht club.
Regards,
Troy Scott
CD36 Imagine
FYC, Fairhope, AL
Hello again! I've been off the board for a while, mainly because the boat work needed to catch up with the well-answered questions I'be posted in the past.
Finally I have a new question: For a Cape Dory 36, what would be the angle, (relative to horizontal) of the bow wave at hull speed, both at the bow and at a location about four feet aft of the bow, in the general location of a possible bow thruster?
I know there is probably a well-known formula for this, but I'm not finding it. I've studied my "Skene's Elements of Yacht Design, and I don't believe it's there. I suspect that this is because the question is more about trigonometry than yacht design. I'm not asking anyone to do the calculations for me, unless that just happens to be your cup of tea. I would be happy to know the formula!
Please, this is not a question about yacht handling skill nor philosophy. If your first response is going to be "forget it, real sailors don't need a bow thruster," wait until you are older, and still want to single-hand a CD36 into and out of a tight slip in a crowded yacht club.
Regards,
Troy Scott
CD36 Imagine
FYC, Fairhope, AL
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
-
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Hi Troy,
It's good to hear from you again.
Can't be of any help concerning wave angles. We are thinking of installing a bow thruster on the schooner. It is only at the talking stage at the present time. From early research, we have learned a few basics.
The placement of the thruster tube should be as far foreward from the hull turning pivot point as possible for maximum leverage.
Because of the cutaway keel on a CD hull, you will be rather limited as to the placment of your thruster. The top of the tube should be under the water surface at least as much as the diameter of the tube being used.
Financially speaking, it is far best to do as much installation work by yourself. There will be some tricky parts of the job to be concerned with, such as, shaping the tube at two curvature entities and ensuring complete waterproofing of the tube/hull joints.
You can probably get good insight to your project by contacting New England Bow Thruster Corp. Their e address is:
http://www.newenglandbowthruster.com.
They may be able to give insight to your wave angle concern.
Good luck with your project. Say hi to Madison.
Best regards,
O J
It's good to hear from you again.
Can't be of any help concerning wave angles. We are thinking of installing a bow thruster on the schooner. It is only at the talking stage at the present time. From early research, we have learned a few basics.
The placement of the thruster tube should be as far foreward from the hull turning pivot point as possible for maximum leverage.
Because of the cutaway keel on a CD hull, you will be rather limited as to the placment of your thruster. The top of the tube should be under the water surface at least as much as the diameter of the tube being used.
Financially speaking, it is far best to do as much installation work by yourself. There will be some tricky parts of the job to be concerned with, such as, shaping the tube at two curvature entities and ensuring complete waterproofing of the tube/hull joints.
You can probably get good insight to your project by contacting New England Bow Thruster Corp. Their e address is:
http://www.newenglandbowthruster.com.
They may be able to give insight to your wave angle concern.
Good luck with your project. Say hi to Madison.
Best regards,
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
- bottomscraper
- Posts: 1400
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:08
- Location: Previous Owner of CD36 Mahalo #163 1990
- Contact:
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Can you measure it from this picture?
Rich Abato
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
-
- Posts: 4367
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 17:25
- Location: s/v LIQUIDITY, CD28. We sail from Marina Bay on Boston Harbor. Try us on channel 9.
- Contact:
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Get the free iPhone app instead. It doesn't do anything other than it makes the same noise as a bow thruster, which is sure to impress your marina mates.Oswego John wrote: We are thinking of installing a bow thruster on the schooner.
Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
-
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Thanks, OJ! Nice to hear from you. Actually, I've already bought a Vetus bow-thruster. As you mentioned, it was pretty tricky locating it. We have cut the hole through the bow, and we have fit the tunnel. We do have a little more than one tunnel diameter between the top of the tunnel and the waterline. I had to put a lot of thought into the installation, because I had to remove a significant amount of the hull liner, and most of the wood within the little seat/step in the vee-berth area. However, I've managed to not disturb any of the woodwork/cabinetry that is visible when everything is in place. I believe that it's going to work out so that I could actually reinstall the water tank that I've removed to provide access for this installation. However, I will wait until the boat is floating to decide whether or not to install the water tank. I'm leaving that and some of the battery placement issues until I see how she floats on her lines. It's difficult (but not impossible) to figure if I've made the bow heavier or lighter. I'm adding an electric anchor windlass, a bow thruster and a forward battery, all of which adds weight forward, but I've eliminated a lot of heavy hull-liner and a big water tank, all of which reduces weight forward. I believe I'll fill that tank, weigh it, and also weigh the stuff I've removed. That will give me some idea....
Rich,
No, unfortunately that beautiful photo will not provide the engineering info I need. However, it's a very inspiring photo!
Neil, my "stealth" bow-thruster is going to be my little secret. Nobody will hear it! However, since you mentioned a bow-thruster app, I will point out that there is actually a smartphone app that will control this thruster via Bluetooth. Not that I would ever use it.....
OK, I'm still hoping somebody will help me figure out this angle thing. The Vetus instructions suggest that the optimum (minimum drag) installation requires a hull fairing on the aft side of the tunnel, and that this fairing should be installed in line with the expected bow wave at the tunnel location; I'm assuming at hull speed, since that's when we want to be least limited. Obviously this calculated angle will be close to correct only when the yacht is sailing level or under power, but it will help in any case. Vetus obviously put a lot of research into this plan. I've had it checked out by a professor who understands these things, but I forgot to ask him how to calculate the angle. I do plan to ask him this question, but I'm hoping that the good folks on this board will give me a heads-up so I won't seem SO ignorant when I ask him. The instructions mention a maximum of 15 degrees, but if they've included a way to calculate exactly what the angle should be, I can't find it.
Rich,
No, unfortunately that beautiful photo will not provide the engineering info I need. However, it's a very inspiring photo!
Neil, my "stealth" bow-thruster is going to be my little secret. Nobody will hear it! However, since you mentioned a bow-thruster app, I will point out that there is actually a smartphone app that will control this thruster via Bluetooth. Not that I would ever use it.....
OK, I'm still hoping somebody will help me figure out this angle thing. The Vetus instructions suggest that the optimum (minimum drag) installation requires a hull fairing on the aft side of the tunnel, and that this fairing should be installed in line with the expected bow wave at the tunnel location; I'm assuming at hull speed, since that's when we want to be least limited. Obviously this calculated angle will be close to correct only when the yacht is sailing level or under power, but it will help in any case. Vetus obviously put a lot of research into this plan. I've had it checked out by a professor who understands these things, but I forgot to ask him how to calculate the angle. I do plan to ask him this question, but I'm hoping that the good folks on this board will give me a heads-up so I won't seem SO ignorant when I ask him. The instructions mention a maximum of 15 degrees, but if they've included a way to calculate exactly what the angle should be, I can't find it.
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Troy,
I think most of us (even if secretly) have often wished we had a bow thruster.
I cant help much with your questions, but I am wondering about the hull liner. The liner in the bow (at least on my boat) is structural, the bulkheads rest on it for their support and it is providing stiffness to the hull. Are you putting in any reinforcement up there to make up for what you removed? Or is the area you removed not significant enough to cause any issues?
I cut a access hatch up there, just in front of the head, when I replaced my cabin sole, its pretty shallow. I am having a hard time envisioning where you are going to place the thruster. Is going going to be partially above the cabin sole with a "box" placed over it?
I think most of us (even if secretly) have often wished we had a bow thruster.
I cant help much with your questions, but I am wondering about the hull liner. The liner in the bow (at least on my boat) is structural, the bulkheads rest on it for their support and it is providing stiffness to the hull. Are you putting in any reinforcement up there to make up for what you removed? Or is the area you removed not significant enough to cause any issues?
I cut a access hatch up there, just in front of the head, when I replaced my cabin sole, its pretty shallow. I am having a hard time envisioning where you are going to place the thruster. Is going going to be partially above the cabin sole with a "box" placed over it?
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
-
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Hi Russell,
The material I removed did not support anything other than interior furniture and the water tank I have (temporarily?) removed. As I understand it, the installation of the tunnel dramatically strengthens the hull. Plus, after the thruster installation is complete, I will be replacing some structure that I removed, as well as adding some structure to support a battery. This will all be tabbed to the hull and/or the tunnel fairing, etc.. I'm documenting the installation with photos and a written explanation, in part to avoid any new survey issues. I'm sure that the boat will be at least as structurally sound as it was, and possibly stronger.
The thruster fits neatly just forward of the small bulkhead near the center of the vee-berth, in what was (at least in my boat) "wasted space" aft of the water tank and forward of the bulkhead.
Are you still cruising?
The material I removed did not support anything other than interior furniture and the water tank I have (temporarily?) removed. As I understand it, the installation of the tunnel dramatically strengthens the hull. Plus, after the thruster installation is complete, I will be replacing some structure that I removed, as well as adding some structure to support a battery. This will all be tabbed to the hull and/or the tunnel fairing, etc.. I'm documenting the installation with photos and a written explanation, in part to avoid any new survey issues. I'm sure that the boat will be at least as structurally sound as it was, and possibly stronger.
The thruster fits neatly just forward of the small bulkhead near the center of the vee-berth, in what was (at least in my boat) "wasted space" aft of the water tank and forward of the bulkhead.
Are you still cruising?
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
- tartansailor
- Posts: 1527
- Joined: Aug 30th, '05, 13:55
- Location: CD25, Renaissance, Milton, DE
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Troy.
Here's a link on a study done which is applicable to your question"
http://www.isope.org/publications/proce ... C_406.pdf
However IMHO, you will find it extremely difficult, if not impossible to get a definitive accurate and precise answer.
Why?
Too many unknowns like:
Inaccuracy in measurements
Shock wave
Visual cortex
water make-up like salt content, delta temp, etc.
Just put it as far forward and as deep in your keel as possible.
Dick
Here's a link on a study done which is applicable to your question"
http://www.isope.org/publications/proce ... C_406.pdf
However IMHO, you will find it extremely difficult, if not impossible to get a definitive accurate and precise answer.
Why?
Too many unknowns like:
Inaccuracy in measurements
Shock wave
Visual cortex
water make-up like salt content, delta temp, etc.
Just put it as far forward and as deep in your keel as possible.
Dick
Viam Inveniam Aut Faciam
-
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Dick and all you other Folks,
I finally found a very complex formula for determining the proper angle of the fairing. This is an immense problem with SO many variables to consider that it would probably be necessary to buy a program specifically for this. Otherwise, the math would take forever. I have determined that I will just follow the Vetus directions and use the suggested 15º down angle for the trailing fairing. if any of you have spent time on this problem on my behalf, I apologize.
I finally found a very complex formula for determining the proper angle of the fairing. This is an immense problem with SO many variables to consider that it would probably be necessary to buy a program specifically for this. Otherwise, the math would take forever. I have determined that I will just follow the Vetus directions and use the suggested 15º down angle for the trailing fairing. if any of you have spent time on this problem on my behalf, I apologize.
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
-
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: Jan 21st, '06, 01:23
- Location: Cape Dory 36 IMAGINE Laurel, Mississippi
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Folks,
The thruster project is progressing well. We decided to follow the Vetus instructions to the letter for their "best performance" (least drag) installation. All the lamination has been done, and we are well into sanding the fairings to shape. It's well on the way to looking just like the picture.
Somewhere on the net I read an article by an "expert" who said this work should require two days. I will tell anyone that it may be possible to hack together a functional installation in two days, but doing a nice job requires many times that. I'm looking forward to sailing!
The thruster project is progressing well. We decided to follow the Vetus instructions to the letter for their "best performance" (least drag) installation. All the lamination has been done, and we are well into sanding the fairings to shape. It's well on the way to looking just like the picture.
Somewhere on the net I read an article by an "expert" who said this work should require two days. I will tell anyone that it may be possible to hack together a functional installation in two days, but doing a nice job requires many times that. I'm looking forward to sailing!
Regards,
Troy Scott
Troy Scott
- Joe Myerson
- Posts: 2216
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 11:22
- Location: s/v Creme Brulee, CD 25D, Hull #80, Squeteague Harbor, MA
Re: Angle of the bow wave
Troy,
Best of luck on this complex project. I've used a bow thruster on a p*w*r boat, and found it a great help, especially since I was skippering a British-built boat with prop-walk in the wrong direction for us folks on this side of the Pond. (Somehow I don't think I could fit a Vetus into my little 25D) Why not install one if it will keep you sailing?
--Joe
Best of luck on this complex project. I've used a bow thruster on a p*w*r boat, and found it a great help, especially since I was skippering a British-built boat with prop-walk in the wrong direction for us folks on this side of the Pond. (Somehow I don't think I could fit a Vetus into my little 25D) Why not install one if it will keep you sailing?
--Joe
Former Commodore, CDSOA
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80
"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627
Former Captain, Northeast Fleet
S/V Crème Brûlée, CD 25D, Hull # 80
"What a greate matter it is to saile a shyppe or goe to sea."
--Capt. John Smith, 1627