CD 25--saturated foam in keel

[OtterHill]

The previous owner of my boat drilled some small test holes in the aft part of the keel, between the ballast and the rudder. I opened them up in order to fill them, and found not only some water, but saturated foam. I've read through a bunch of past posts about weeping keels, but I haven't found any mention of 25's with foam in their keels. It seems that some have sumps and some have air spaces... is this accurate?

When looking into the bilge from the sole hatch, I can see what looks like some sort of filler in the aft part of the bilge. I wonder if a previous owner filled the bilge sump with foam, then covered it with a filler. Has anyone else dealt with saturated foam in their keels? I don't think that foam will dry in ten years in downeast Maine, even if I drilled 100 holes, so I'll have to either remove all of it, somehow, or leave it...

Also, I'm wondering what separates the lead ballast from this aft sump area? Is there a glassed-in divider, or could water that finds its way around the ballast eventually work its way all the way aft? (I ask because there's some separation between the lead and the hull--it looks like the glass that once covered the ballast was starved, allowing increasing amounts of seepage. I can fill these cracks, but wonder where the water that went in there ended up--i.e. do I need to drill any holes in the ballast part of the keel, or concentrate on the aft section of the keel?)

thanks for any thoughts.

jon

[OtterHill]

An update:

I now think that the foam in the keel was done by the manufacturer--the boat is a 1974. Has anyone tried to remove or dry-out this foam/filler? Perhaps the old posts I've read that concern weeping keels were all dealing with the same sort of saturation, they just don't mention the foam...?

thanks for any info.

jon

[tartansailor]

This is a subject that raises more questions than answers.
I have no idea of the composition of the bottom of the boat other than fiberglass and lead.
It is easy to picture a foam addition after the lead was positioned as a less expensive
alternate to polyester resin, but that is only a guess.
I also wonder what the bottom flat surface of our boats look like, and if compromised,
could be an entry point for water?
Please keep us informed of your progress.

Dick

[billc]

i also went back thru the old posts. seems like a fairly common problem. i wouldn't think there is any real solution unless you could fill the voids and seal the entry points. that latter being the more feasible? i would doubt much is coming from the bilge as the glass is so thick there but maybe around old lifting rings? answer keep bilge dry. you could try sealing around the gudgeons but seems like alot of work unless they are now bolted. i would suspect many older keel boats with rudder attached to keel have this problem. just searching the archives i saw it mentioned in respect to a typhoon, 25, 27,28. therefore i might guess that others could have similar problems as i would guess keel construction methods were standard?.

i don't think i would drill a bunch off holes to dry out until you solve the intrusion problem. someone mentioned a drain hole. this wouln't do much for the saturated foam. my "solution" would be to inspection the gudgeons every year to insure solid and go sail. while they may have used foam to fair certain portions of the keel to aid layup of the glass they also certainly used heavy quantities of hand laid glass over the whole. finally i think the 25 a great boat. that said i think its a boat to get a good coat of paint on and go day sailing or overnighting. i have not followed all your posts but i would not worry about getting an old one "bristol" unless you just like doing it.

billc

[john59]

I have Cape Dory 25 #59 with foam aft of the keel, saturated with water and bilge mung - smelled very bad. This boat has a diesel which was installed sometime after original construction. When the engine stringers were installed (glassed in) the bilge sump was coated in resin, poorly, which unfortunately allowed water to seep underneath and into the foam. There is evidence of motor oil under the resin and in the foam. I discovered all of this as I had the engine out over the winter. I removed all the surface resin - chipped it out fairly easily. I then drilled with a 1" flat bit into the foam in ten or so locations adjacent to each other. Actually the foam was fairly dense so I wouldn't say that it was foam, but rather some sort of filler, perhaps some variation of bondo. I tried to dry the foam/filler with a hair dryer but overnight the holes would fill with water. I had apparent success vacuuming the water out with a wet/dry vac as no more water seeped into the holes, but I doubt the foam is dry well below the surface. Finally I glassed over the area where the holes are (didn't fill them), thinking that some day I'll revisit the problem when the engine comes out again. The foul smell is gone, but hopefully nothing is growing in the void under the fiberglass I put in!

[OtterHill]

Yeah, that sounds similar to mine. I've ground away the bad glass surrounding the holes in the keel, and in doing so discovered the source of the problem. The resin or bondo at the bottom of the bilge had separated from the hull, as had the scant layer of fiberglass, allowing bilge water to get into the keel and saturate the foam-filler. I'd dried it out with a heat gun and acetone, but when I hit the bilge "floor" with the grinder, I opened another pocket of water that spilled out--by "pocket" I mean it was caught between the foam and bilge floor.

The hole is bigger than I'd like to see in my hull, but I found the problem and everything is dry, and once I fill it and glass it, it'll be as strong as ever. (My lobsterboat builder friend scoffed when I told him my problem--to them, there's no such thing as big holes in fiberglass. They routinely cut holes in order to work on shafts and whatnot...)

But I'm not sure how to adequately seal the rest of the bilge because it's so far aft in the keel that I can't reach it from the hatch. I want to be certain that the bilge is sealed well from inside. My plan right now is to duct tape a big mixing spoon onto a broom stick and ladle thickened epoxy down there, then use the bottom of the spoon to smooth it out along each edge of the bilge... sounds a bit crazy.

John59 must have had the cockpit taken apart for the engine installation? Is that how you accessed it?

A note: I have a second hole, aft of this one, nearly above the gudgeon. I ground it out to fill and glass, and I found that this area of the keel is filled with a different substance--not the foam that's directly aft of the ballast. This stuff is like the rock in sheet rock--gypsum? I was able to get the saturated stuff out, and dry it.

And thanks, BillC, for the advice--I get caught up thinking I need to make everything perfect... I don't need a showpiece, just a safe, solid boat.

thanks.

jon