Upwind sailing questions

[Starfish]

Hi Folks,

We have a CD25D. When we sail close hauled, we do not seem able to sail any closer to the wind than around 60 degrees. Is this typical for this boat or is it us???

The mainsheet is trimmed in as far as possible before we luff, telltales happily flying, but when we come about, it appears that we are loosing ground because of the wider angle our boat makes. I know it's impossible to sail 45 degrees off the wind, but still.....any tips, comments, etc?

Thanks!

Linda

[moctrams]

Have you tried using a "snatch block" attached near the winch?. Sounds like your genoa is not flat enough.

[Neil Gordon]

The boat should point higher than that.

How old and in what condition are your sails? How does performance change as wind conditions change? Etc.?

[Starfish]

The genny is brand new and the main is in pretty good shape (no pun intended). So, the blocks that the genny's sheets go through, could be moved forward to flatten the genny? I think that is the direction they go, if the winds pipe up and you need to flatten the sail.

I can point higher in stronger winds, but still, we think we should be doing better.

What about the main traveler? Would adjusting that help?

Thanks...... Linda

[moctrams]

I believe the blocks should be farther back. Looks like you have to much "belly" in the genoa.

[NateHanson]

Do you have multiple telltales on the genoa? When close to the wind, but not luffing, can you get all 3 or 4 sets of telltales flying straight? (Or at least, all but the top set?) If only the bottom ones fly straight before the sail luffs, you need to move the jib fairlead forward.

Now, while sailing close-hauled, lie down on deck under the jib, with your head near the bow. Look up the headstay. How far does it sag to leeward. If there's more than a few inches of sag in the headstay, you need to tighten the backstay. Too much sag in the headstay will inhibit your pointing ability.

The location of the traveller affects the shape of the main. Do you have telltales flying off the leach of the main? If the Top telltales are curling around the back of the main, then you need more twist in the sail, so ease the mainsheet a bit, and raise the traveller a bit. This tends to be a problem in lighter winds.

In heavier winds, you may want to flatten and depower the main (to reduce heeling and weather helm) by dropping the traveller to leeward, and hauling in on the mainsheet.

Good luck, have fun.

Nate

[Dick Kobayashi]

Nate and others have good advice and I recommend practicing the techniques. Note that the pointing characteristics/sail trim required differ some as the wind pipes up. Also note that there is an inner jib sheet track that allows you to bring the jib (but only a 100% jib) INSIDE the side stays. With plenty of wind and a 100% jib this works pretty well. I am lazy though and don't often change sails unless I am going a fair distance, have a forecast for plenty of wind, and one capable deckhand (not that frequent a situation).

[Michael Heintz]

Totally agree with Nate. I constantly adjust my traverler vs mainsheet adjustments.....you should be able to point far closer to the wind when finessing these to trims......

[Starfish]

Hi Again,


Thanks for all of your suggestions and great advice! Next time we are out sailing, we will try these and see what happens.

To see if I got this straight, about the mainsheet traveler and the genoa sheet blocks: as a general rule (assuming one can generalize here!):

I would move the main traveler inwards (toward the center of the boat) when the winds are stronger and move it out when they are lighter....is that right?

And, when the winds are light, the genoa blocks would be moved back; forward when winds are strong?

Yes, we do have telltales on the new genoa, but they are hard to see being blocked by the main. And, there are telltales on the main's leech; easy to see : )

[moctrams]

Before I ever started sailing, I bought a book called "SAIL POWER" by Wallace Ross. I studied this book from cover to cover and when I got my first sloop rigged sailboat and I put what I learned in practice, it all came clear. One of the things I learned very quickly regarding sheet blocks is "move them forward to power UP and back to power DOWN". I watch my telltales on the jib and on the leech of the main. You just have to go sailing and put the theories to practice. After awhile it comes 2nd nature.

[Stan W.]

I would move the main traveler inwards (toward the center of the boat) when the winds are stronger and move it out when they are lighter....is that right?

No, it's the other way around.

When sailing a beat, think of the genoa as a wing and the mainsail as its trimtab. How high you point is mostly a function of your genoa trim--adjust twist with the genoa leads and sheet it in until it almost touches the spreader tip. The mainsail is used mostly to balance the helm. Use the mainsheet to adjust twist and the traveler to adjust angle of attack. As the wind picks up, you will need to move the traveler to leeward to maintain a balanced helm.

[RIKanaka]

Good questions and great answers. I should have read this post yesterday before moving my boat from Wickford to Dutch Harbor, beating upwind in 20 kts the whole way and running into scores of other boats flying spinnakers in the opposite direction in one of NYYC's Around Conanicut Island events this weekend. Might have saved me a few tacks.

[tjr818]

We were out yesterday in our CD27. The winds were blowing about 15-20kts and there was about a three foot chop. We started off upstream and down wind at 4 to 4 1/2 knots with just half of the 155 genoa unfurled. the boat was rolling so much I decided to raise a double reefed main and angle off a bit onto a broad reach. That seemed to stop the rolling and after some exciting jibes and "Chicken Jibes" we turned around to head back. With a double reefed main and a about 2/3 of the 155 we were moving along nicely at about 4-4 1/2 knots. When we tried to come about things would get interesting. Often we couldn't make it through the turn and if we did the genoa would catch so much wind that it would spin the boat around much further than we wanted. Then she would pick up some speed and we could head up back to the course we wanted. We practiced and practiced, getting a little bit better, but still not satisfactorily. I think we needed either less of the genny or more of the main, but I felt we were too overpowered to shake out a reef and with less of the genoa we didn't have the drive to make it through the tacks. I had the traveler to the lee side and the boom vang tightened, but still could not get the main to draw properly the top half was curled off to leeward. Any advice would sure be appreciated.

[NateHanson]

I had the traveler to the lee side and the boom vang tightened, but still could not get the main to draw properly the top half was curled off to leeward. Any advice would sure be appreciated.

Was your reef line tight enough? You want that reef cringle on the leech to be within a few inches of the boom. If it's too loose, you won't get enough leech tension (which gives you excessive twist).

Tacking in heavy wind can be a trick. The helmsman needs to straighten the tiller just at the right moment. Otherwise the bow ends up too far off the wind, and the genoa will take you downwind, heeling the boat excessively before boat speed picks up enough for the helm to bring you close to the wind. It helps to have a shrewd jib trimmer - if they don't sheet the jib in too tightly, right away, the boat has a chance to speed up (without heeling way over) and then as the helmsman brings it back close to the wind on the new tack, the trimmer can haul in right to the spreader.

Man, it's been too long since I've been out sailing! Less chat, more sailing is what I need.

Have fun

[trapper]

Linda,

Your question really got me thinking. My sailing of my CD25D has been so sloppy of late, that I cannot even think in my minds eye where her genoa blocks are sitting. I have not sailed her much lately as I have been racing the Ensign and practicing with a friend on his Ty. The C25D sits stern to in her slip and the Ensign is across the dock. We were sitting in the Ensign and looked at the CD25D and my friend noted that the boat was listing to port. I told my friend it was his fault as the list was because there was too much beer in the ice box. My point is, these boats dont have much storage but the tendancy is to fill them up with everything but the kitchen sink. Make sure you have only what you need and that the load is balanced on the boat if you want her to perform.

Second, one person talked about the headstay tension, that is critical for going to weather. The rig must be tuned

Third, unless very light air, both your halyards should be full on as should your outhaul.

I added track to both the Ensign and the Ty. When I have my 150 I look at the angle from the block going up the leech of the genoa. in 8 K or so it should be straight. On both the Ty and the Ensign, the block is a just behind the winch.

You mentioned you had trouble when you tack. That could be a lot of your problem. The goal (which few ever meet) is to change direction, close hauled to the opposit tack loosing as little speed as possible and start beating as soon as possible.

I have seen people tack their boats by throwing away the genoa sheet at the beginning of the tack then start jerking everything in on the other side. That is how to stop a full keep boat like ours in a tack and sometimes actually end up back on the same tack as you started.

Try this: start out on a beam reach in 6-8K. Get your boats speed up to about 5K (4.5 is OK) now start heading up slowing and trimming in both your main and genoa. All the while maintain or increase your boat speed. If you slow down, trim in a little but keep on the same heading-- stop heading up until your boat speed recovers. Continue until you have the main almost all the way in, do not pinch it in and the genoa should be about 2 inches off your spreaders. You should be at or close to 45 degrees off the wind at that point, if you are tuned, set and trimmed.

Pointing is a function of speed. You cannot point until you get enough boat speed. If you are turning way too far off wind and coming out of a tack without enough boat speed to point you may be ending up at 60 degrees. try this: Note your boat speed before the tack. When you start the tack let off just a little (2-4") on your mainsheet and about 2" on your genoa sheet. Hold on to the genoa sheet until the genoa is backwinded and it has turned the boat beyond head to wind then turn loose and start bringing it in the other side. Avoid as much flogging as possible. Once the sails fill and the boat starts going note boat speed--you will probably be around 60 degrees off until you get better at this. If your boat speed is 1-2K, think of this as first gear. If you went from 1st to 4th gear in your car, you may never reach cruising speed, same with the boat. Let the boat pick up say to 3 k before you starting pulling in. Then pull in slowly building speed all the time. Once you get to about 4k you should be able to trim to 45 degrees or so. As you get better at this, you should lose less speed and come out of your tack more like 50 degrees than 60.

If I had a new genoa, I wold also ask my sailmaker to take a ride and make sure the airflow across the genoa was as intended. Also, if you have roller furling, that will affect your pointing ability as the foot of the sail will not be on the deck.

Finally, you might consider looking around for a race crew to join, preferrably a full keel smaller boat, like an Ensign or Ty. I know that since I have started racing again, my sailing skills have really improved.