The mystery of water in the engine pan

[hilbert]

Robert,

I understand that my comments are off topic and that my experience may not be relevant to yours. The point that I wish to make is the raw core is exposed around the cowlings. It is only sealant that is keeping water out. The sealant used by the factory will eventually fail (they did not use butyl tape). The fiberglass skin is thick in this area and core damage will not be obvious.

Yes, boats are fun. Fair winds,

Jonathan

[Sea Hunt Video]

Robert,

I understand that my comments are off topic and that my experience may not be relevant to yours. The point that I wish to make is the raw core is exposed around the cowlings. It is only sealant that is keeping water out. The sealant used by the factory will eventually fail (they did not use butyl tape). The fiberglass skin is thick in this area and core damage will not be obvious.

Yes, boats are fun. Fair winds,

Jonathan

Jonathan:

Absolutely NOT "off topic". That is a potential source of water ingress. As part of my "Sherlock Holmes" investigation of the cowlings, vent hoses, etc., I will more carefully examine the cowling rings, the deck around the cowlings, etc.

I intend to solve this "crime" of water ingress and need all the help, advise and suggestions I can get.

NOAA/NWS reported 4 inches of rain in 2 hours where I live Close to a record. Have not been able to get a rainfall report for sailing club's mooring field although I suspect possibly not as much as in my neighborhood. Several backyard pools were flooded. Geez......

[barfwinkle]

Robert couldn't you eliminate the cowlings as a leak source by taking them out and inserting the deck plates? Of course that would be dependent upon you having the deck plates?

Fair Winds

BTW while installing Rhapsody's new traveler I also inspected the deck core around the cowl vents and they too were not sealed. The core is fine, and now sealed.

FW

[Sea Hunt Video]

Robert couldn't you eliminate the cowlings as a leak source by taking them out and inserting the deck plates? Of course that would be dependent upon you having the deck plates?

Bill:

I do have the deck plates. My thinking was that I would first turn the cowlings "down wind". If this solves the "water in engine sump" issue then all I have to do is remember to turn the cowlings down wind after each sail.

If it does not solve the problem then I would move on to other possible causes and solutions. Next step would be to remove the cowlings and install the deck plates and then wait for a heavy rain. If that solves the issue then I know that the cowlings have to be removed (or covered) each time.

If these steps do not solve the "water in engine sump" issue I will then move on to other possible causes - cockpit lockers, tiller base, etc.

In medicine, the doctors who charge you $100 for an office visit tell you there are 2-3 reasons why it hurts when you raise your arm above your head. The doctors who charge you $300 for the same office visit tell they are "exploring differential diagnoses" which is a fancy way of saying "we don't know why your arm hurts but we have 2-3 possible reasons". They could not get that extra $200 without using the words "differential diagnoses".

I, following in the steps of the legendary detective Sherlock Holmes, am "exploring differential diagnoses" for the cause of the engine sump water.

[Steve Laume]

Jonathan, now that you have sealed the cowl vents off to prevent any water from entering, where is the engine going to get it's air?

I have been systematically sealing the core around all the penetrations on Raven. This has been accomplished by routing out some core around the opening and then filling with epoxy. This will prevent any migration of water into the balsa core but you can still keep whatever hardware belongs there.

Why it may be nice to have a perfectly dry boat, it is not a matter that concerns me all that much. You certainly don't want water to enter the balsa core. Sealing the edges and rebedding hardware is a pretty simple fix for that issue. Some water entering through the cowl vents wouldn't bother me. You could make a habit of turning them both aft if you get a lot of heavy rain. I do remove them and plug the openings during storm conditions. I also duct tape the anchor hawser when I expect to take some water over the bow.

I did have a leak at my companion way which dripped down onto the counter. That was pretty annoying. Making up a little teak door stop to back up the base of the lower drop board seems to have eliminated that.

A generation ago, petty much, all boats leaked.

It might just be me but these are boats we are talking about and there will be some water on both sides of the hull at various times, Steve.

[hilbert]

Steve, this is a great question and deserving of its own thread. I have started a new Topic: "Are Engine Cowls Necessary?"

[RC James]

Three inches of rain yesterday..................happened to be at the boat, because I knew the engine pan would need sponging.................... judging by the dust I have failed to clean up over the last year, I am narrowing down the freshwater intrusion to the area of the underside/aft portion of the rudder tube and the teak block. Had sealed it w/caulking awhile ago (years), and the cat-paws of weeping water lead me to believe that it really isn't the air-vents, nor the cockpit covers (which never really do drain into the center of the 25d). Will reseal the area in question, and watch carefully.
More to follow, but today was scraping Cetol off the rubrails and reapplying a couple of coats. Perhaps with enough 'paint', I'll never notice that I should have sanded the wood before applying teh Cetol.

Cetol Gloss isn't very forgiving, but perhaps 5 coats, followed by a few coats of regular Cetol will soften the errors, and blind the admirers..... except for fellow Cape Dory owners - who know what perfection CAN be, and expect more, but will admit that sailing is better than sanding. RC

[Sea Hunt Video]

RC:

I am not sure where you are located. I have had very good results with Cetol. When I was the caretaker of S/V Tadpole (1977 Typhoon Weekender) I redid the toe rails and rub rails. I sanded everything down to teak and made sure it was clean. I then applied three coats of Cetol Marine Natural Teak and then two coats of Cetol Clear Gloss. Because it was a total of five coats it took five consecutive days. However, the application process was not difficult.

S/V Tadpole lived on a mooring at the sailing club. After more than a year of 24/7/365 South Florida weather (sun, rain, heat, humidity, storms) I was happily surprised that the toe rails and rub rails looked almost as good as when I did the work. I intend to continue to use Cetol on S/V Bali Ha'i.

I checked on my engine pan yesterday after several rains (none real downpours). There some water in the pan but not too much. I had previously removed the aft cowlings and had the covers on as suggested by Bly H. I may next try sealing the teak plate where it is attached to the cockpit sole - as you had done. I am reluctant to apply any sealant to the top of the tube as I assume this will impede shaft movement, etc.

The hunt for the water leak continues unabated

[RC James]

SeaHunt...... the water's point of entry seems to be the aft/back portion of the rudder tube where it enters the teak block on the cockpit floor. The top of the rudder tube (open, in my case) should drain into the ocean.........all waters found in the pan have been fresh, therefore I do not plan to seal the top of the rudder tube, just the section where it enters the block and deck.
Boat is in Norfolk, VA.

Have used Cetol since I purchased Sere in 1998. An old hand recommended a couple of coats of high gloss, followed by alternating coats of regular and gloss. It seemed to produce a rather nice light color of natural teak, and then the Cetol manufactures caught on to the idea and produced "Natural'!! They seem to be ready to do anything to part me from my hard earned cash.

Unfortunately, I am lazy when it comes to maintaing the wood finish, so every 3 to 5 years, I content myself w/a hand held wood scraper and peel off the old, toughened layers, get down to bare wood and reseal. Got a little impatient this last week---- impending thunderboomers-- and skipped the final sanding...........bad move, but at least it gives me the INCENTIVE to layer on more lathers of covering, in the hope that it will smooth and glow.... and if it doesn't...I can always throw some additional coats of the original MIDNIGHT BROWN over it after a quick sanding.

The Virginia Sun isn't quite as brutal to wood as your Florida Sun seems to be. RC

[Noel Heslop]

Robert,
I have fresh water accumulating under my motor after heavy rain.
I will watch this thread with interest, and I wish you well.
if I solve my problem, i will update this thread with great enthuiasm.

[trapper]

Good luck with tracking down your leak. I finally stopped mine but I am not sure how. When I first got Saga, the water in the engine pan would spill over into the bilge. We replaced the cutlass bearing and it stopped for a while. Then it started back again but not as much. I closed the vents biut that did not work so I rebedded the deck fitting for the vents and that worked for a while. Then the leak started again, in the engine pan! Now it has stopped. I never did find it.

The only thing that i did remotely near the aft portion of the boat during that time was I stripped the toerail and left it stripped for a while before revarnishing. The water has stopped. We had a bad storm last weekend--winds 60K, hail and heavy rain. Saga's bilge and oil pan were dusty after the storm.

[Ed Haley]

Since the amount of water varies with the rainfall, my guess is that the leak is somewhere along the floor of the cockpit such as the rudder post housing, helm base if you have a wheel or other plate on the floor. I would also expect to see some core rot at the site of the leak.

The large amounts of water also suggests pooling of water near the leak which usually happens at the aft end of the cockpit during heavy rains.

That's my best guess.

[Joe Myerson]

Robert:
Like you, I often find water in the engine pan, especially after a rainstorm.
In the case of Creme Brulee, some of the rain intrusion--probably a lot, in fact-- is coming from the cockpit lockers, which do not provide a watertight seal.

Bly:
I never thought to close up the cowl vents, but I'm sure that they leak. Like you and Robert, I have flimsy, clothes-dryer air ducts which I could probably put my finger through.

Hilbert:
I've got some water intrusion around my vents, too. I discovered it, but have been dragging my feet, dangerously, over correcting the problem.

NOTE: Rich Van Heynigen, a CD 28 owner and the skilled craftsman who replaced my engine mounts, cutless bearing and shaft/propeller, has done away with the ducts altogether. He says the two vents seem to provide enough ventilation to keep the engine running well. I haven't tried that yet.

--Joe

[Dick Kobayashi]

All boats leak, that is why they have a defined bilge and bilge pumps. If the leaks are modest and intermittent, occasional pumping is a fine solution which I can now do electrically. I have noted however that now that I have an electric bilge pump installed, I haven't needed it.

Also note that when the engine pan is full it overflows into (where else?) the bilge.

Hope to be on Buzzards Bay this weekend and perhaps early in the week, now that Susan B is in the water and she has had her annual refueling (2.4 gals).

[Joe Myerson]

Such words of wisdom, Dick.

And, of course, I forgot to mention the stuffing box, which is supposed to leak about 1 drip per minute while the prop is turning. That can also eventually fill the engine pan and leak into the bilge.

Water, water, everywhere ...

--Joe