Starter extraction Perkins 4-108

[lhyde]

Greetings,

The starter on Nutmeg, CD 36 1984 with Perkins 4-108, is suspect. Occasional "click" when starter button is pushed... starts after several tries. Have checked ignition switch and starter button and connections...all appear OK... and have decided the starter needs rebuild. It is in a tight spot. It appears that the oil filter needs to be removed and that I may need long socket extensions. I welcome your experience/thoughts on best way to get it out.

thank you,

Leslie Hyde
S/V Nutmeg

[Steve Laume]

By checking connections, did that include removal and cleaning? You could also remove and clean the positive and negative connections on all the large stater wires. Having the starter checked and or rebuilt is not a bad idea anyway but it may not be the problem, Steve.

[lhyde]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the reply. I did not personally check the connections, but had a technician at Journey's End yard do the check. He replaced a ground cable and this did not fix the problem. He also did a check of the starter button and key switch which were reported to be OK. The starter is a challenge to get at to check anything. Les

[Jim Evans]

Hi Leslie,

I might suggest trying a low voltage starter relay, like the Bosch WR-1, before rebuilding your starter. The relay just boosts the voltage to your starter; they are inexpensive, easy to install, and they do no harm. A clicking starter is a common problem on sailboats, particularly older boats, and I was plagued with the problem for several years with my Yanmar. A reputable shop suggested the relay to me, and I've not had a single problem since I installed it two years ago.

Amazon sells them at http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-WR1-Starter ... 527&sr=8-1

[bottomscraper]

Before you pull the starter you should try either the starter relay sugested by Jim or a new push button switch. Our push button
tested fine with a meter but not under load. I originally replaced with the same junky switch that was installed when we got the boat,
that lasted about half a season. I then replaced with a Cole Hersee M-626 which is rated for 35amps @12 volts. I have not had a problem
since. They were avaialble from all of the suppliers (Hamilton, West, Defender) but no so much anymore. They are still available
from other places. Here are some:

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?7010

http://www.theelectricaldepot.com/cole- ... tches-181/

Also from ShipStore on Amazon, search for "Cole Hersee".

The push button switches with a rectangular body are only rated for 10amps, you want one with a round housing.

GOOD!


BAD!

[Matt Cawthorne]

Leslie,
I think that we had a chat a few years ago when I had my '36 in Tenents harbor overnight. Small world. Try doing a search. I'll throw a link in to a thread that may be of some use. Getting the starter out for me was a major pain. I have heard other owners say that their mechanic did it in a snap. My engine is mounted low in the engine compartment with the starter nearly against the hull. I think it took two people a very long time to get it out. Getting access to the bolts on the front of the starter is reasonable with a socket, 3 extensions and two universal joints. Getting to the nuts on the other side was not so easy. The symptoms were the same as yours. I would recommend trying the solonoid first. Of course you have probably already cleaned all of the contacts, and yes, it could be the circuit that includes the starter button. I might also try buying a box end wrench for the back side of the starter. On my boat a box end wouldn't fit, but in hindsight, if a good torch were handy and the handle of the wrench were heated and bent, I'll bet that would make it much easier.


http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... er#p154201


Matt

[Russell]

When I pulled my 4-108 (before I got rid of it) I had the starter rebuilt even though it worked fine, just because I noticed how impossible it was going to be to remove with the engine installed. I never had to remove mine with the engine installed, but I do recall a conversation I had with a fellow 4-108 owner in the Bahamas a few years back about a replacement starter that was much more compact and easier to extract. I cant tell you the part # or if it indeed would be easier to remove or anything really, only that such a thing may perhaps exist and it might be worth a phone call to TAD to inquire.

[lhyde]

[quote][/quote]"Before you pull the starter you should try either the starter relay suggested by Jim or a new push button switch. "

Thank you all for the reply. I think I will try replacing the starter button as a first step and am interested in the starter relay. Do I need to get at the starter to install the relay? How and where is the relay installed?

Les

[Matt Cawthorne]

Leslie,
A few replys back there is a link that I included. Follow that link. David Van den Burgh had three pictures there. The gold colored object in the middle picture is the Solonoid. The one in the bottom picture was painted blue. It is held in by a couple of small screws.

Have you cleaned all of the connections? There is typically a plug that comes with the P4.108 that connects the engine panel harness to the engine. It can get to be a very poor connector. So things that you need to check and clean are....

Battery to battery cable connections. Battery cable to battery switch connections. Battery switch to solonoid connection. Engine to battery cable (ground) connection. Main power to electrical panel connection (typically off of the battery switch). Circuit breaker to engine control panel wire supply connection. Power to key switch connection. key switch to push button switch wire connection. Push button switch wire to push button. Push button to output wire (this one may be yellow with red stripes). Harness connection. Harness connection to solonoid. If all of these are good, you have fuel and you have charged batteries, then your engine might start.

I bypassed the harness connector and ran wires directly for most things.


Matt

[Larry McAnally]

Leslie,
All the advice you have received sounds good. You are probably correct that the oil filter, at minimum must be removed and you do need LONG extensions to reach the starter bolts. There is one more thing that I dont believe was mentioned and I had a problem with. The ground for my control pannel goes through the harnass as mentioned and is connected to the rear of the alternator. My connection was bad and caused the problem you are experiencing. As Matt sugested you can bypass this and the harnass by using a direct connection for troubleshooting. Just connect a heavy cable such as a battery jumper cable to the ground buss on the control pan. I would also do this with the hot connection.
As Russell sugested there is a "more compact" starter replacement. I dont have the part # handy but it is a reduction gear starter and is much lighter and smaller, thus easier to install. The original weighs a ton and can be used as a mooring if you replace it. I installed the reduction starter and it works fine. I would try all the sugested remidies before removing the starter! If you need the starter and want me to get you the part # I will try.
Oh yes, you can eliminate all of the control wiring and connect a jumper cable directly to the starter from the battery and if the battery is hot and the starter is good it will turn over and should start.
Larry

[John M]

My experiance my be very different but I will pass it on. I have a CD 30 with a M18 Universal. My symptom was the same occasionally a click when I wen t o start. I replaced the starter and had no improvment. I eventually monitored the soliniod voltage and when this happened it only had about 5 volts, which was enough to make the click sound but not enough to engage the solinoid. On the M18 the power is supplied through the key switch to the glow plug switch then to the starter switch. The series resistance through this chain combined with the current for the Glow plugs caused this voltage drop. Off course at no load all the switches tested ok. I simply moved supply to the starter switch to the input side of the key switch. This has worked 100%, until I have time to revamp all components and possibly put a remote relay in for the glow plug current. Before you replace the starter you may want to verify this.

[bottomscraper]

My experiance my be very different ... to the glow plug switch then to the starter switch... .

Perkins 4-108 is different than most other diesels, it doesn't have any glow plugs! I guess I should be more specific and say mine doesn't and I believe very few marine versions had them.

[Kevin Kaldenbach]

Perkins liked to use manifold heaters as opposed to glow plugs

[jcmacleod]

A starter relay will probably do the job. Had the same problem on a CD27 and spoke with a tech from Mack Boring who was based in Chicago. He was their marine diesel guru and suggested the relay and even sent me a spec sheeet on the relay available from yanmar and did a follow up phone call back to me to see how I made out. I just mounted it on the bulkhead on the port side just below my secondary fuel filter which for the ysm8 was real close to starter and solenoid. Worked perfect and engine started first time every time with no more clicking from the starter button.

[lhyde]

Dear respondents,

Thanks for all your helpful advise on my starter problem. I am so happy that I asked for your help before attempting to haul out the starter on Mr. Perkins (we always address our Perkins 4-108 in a most respectful manner, usually adding sir). I had a mechanic friend do some testing and the starter is fine. It turned out to be a weak connection to the starter button.... a jury rig made at some time by a previous owner. Repaired the connection sne she rund just fine. I delayed in taking action and starting the engine until all risk of freezing had past. Thanks for all your support. We are getting ready for an mid-June launch. I was originally hoping to get her in in May, but am being distracted by a week long canoe adventure down the Allagash River in early June.

Leslie Hyde
Pocket Cove
St George, ME
S/V Nutmeg CD36