Upwind sailing questions

[Starfish]

Hi Again,

Thanks, everyone, for your great responses and suggestions! Wish I could do that race over again, but alas, it happens only once/year. Gives us time to practice!

My sails are relatively new and I do have a 110 jib. The day of the race, the winds were howling at a good 20+ kts and a good chop to boot. My sense was to foot rather than pinch, but my sailing buddy had the opposite view. In any event, we had fun.

Another question: Is there a "general rule" for where to put the traveler in different wind speeds, from which we could then experiment.

And, finally, to re-ask a question, how close to the wind can the CD 25D sail?

Thanks,

Linda

[Stan W.]

I think your use of the term "moderate" in your original post led most of us to assume you were racing in fairly light winds. If, in fact, the wind was "howling," some of the advice changes. However, I doubt the winds were as strong as that. With no reef in the mainsail, 20+ knots would put your rail in the water and you would be posting about the horrific weather helm.

In any event, general rules for the mainsheet traveler would be to leave it amidships in moderate winds (around 10 knots) and then start moving it to leeward to help balance the helm as winds increase. In 20+ knots of wind with no reef in the mainsail (something I would never do unless I was racing) I would have my traveler all the way to leeward . As noted in my earlier post, it may also be beneficial to move the traveler to windward in lighter winds.

I would also add that "a good chop" is even more reason to foot instead of pinch. You want as much speed as you can get to punch through those waves.

[Starfish]

Hi,

Initially, the morning of the race started with howling winds and the chop. We did have the main reefed. But, just before the race started, it started to ease to "moderate", so we took the reef out.

Thanks for the info regarding the traveler. We'll try out these suggestions and see how the boat performs.

Linda

[rtbates]

Going to windward the 25D is, or can be TWO boats, depending on the angle of heel, ie., wind speed. Little wind, sitting up maybe 10 heel she's slow and not much fun .

Now get the wind up and the rail under and she's in her element. Have you noticed that given whatever wind speed your 25D heels a lot more than the others?? IT SHOULD!

[Sea Hunt Video]

Have you noticed that given whatever wind speed your 25D heels a lot more than the others?? IT SHOULD!

Randy and all:

Why I would think that with the full keels of the Cape Dory they would heel less because more water is "pushing against" the "windward side" of full keel than is "pushing against" a fin keel.

Please remember, I am a "tadpole" sailor with very limited experience. My only sailing experiences on a Cape Dory 25D have been "test sails". My new-to-me Cape Dory 25D will be arriving in South Florida in about one (1) month. I hope to put her in the water as soon as possible. Winds on Biscayne Bay in the Fall and Winter months generally tend to be 12-15 kts from the East.

Starfish, this is a great thread. Glad you started it

[Starfish]

Hey Robert,

Good luck with your new CD! And, I am glad that you are enjoying this particular thread. I consider myself a newbie to say the least, even if I have been sailing for years. It's a life-long journey and passion for me. And, I love this forum. It's the best!!

In any event, I recall something about the shape of the hull being the factor in whether a boat heals easily initially or not. Rounded hulls, like ours have initial instability so they roll over a tad, but then the righting arm of the keel kicks in and we have super secondary stability. Whereas a flat bottomed boat, like a catboat, would have strong initial stability, but when heeled over a lot, more danger of capsizing, with poor secondary stability. The example was a "coke bottle" bottom like ours, vs a "box", like flatter hulls. Does this make any sense? Does anyone else recall this from any sailing classes ,etc?

[Neil Gordon]

... not the shape of the keel that keeps the boat from heeling excessively. (Note: "Excessively" can be a relative term. For purposes of this discussion, let's define "excessive" as something beyond the design specification, i.e., further than Mr. Alberg might have been comfortable with on a breezy day.)

Think of pulling someone back who's sitting on a swing. The first few feet are easy, because the arc is mostly horizontal. After that though, the force gets more and more vertical and it's you vs. gravity.

Same with the wind trying to move the lead at the bottom of your boat by pushing against the sails. The first 15 degrees is pretty easy, 15-20 is harder and more than that is REALLY, REALLY HARD. Otherwise, when you're sailing with the rail buried, a gust would bury the rail, deck and part of the cabin top.

[kerlandsen]

...
Same with the wind trying to move the lead at the bottom of your boat by pushing against the sails. The first 15 degrees is pretty easy, 15-20 is harder and more than that is REALLY, REALLY HARD. Otherwise, when you're sailing with the rail buried, a gust would bury the rail, deck and part of the cabin top.

... water down the companionway is bad. Done it twice, each time on a very tippy J34. Initially the spinnaker was up, but no so "up" after that move.

[rperrone]

I had the good fortune of winning a cruising class race about 5 years ago. CD 33 winning a race, imagine that, never thought of her as a speedster. Just had a new suit of sails. Probably should get all the credit, and the great crew. Anyway, reading through the replies I see where mention was made that putting the rail closer to the water could thereby increase the water line and increase speed, there is a phsics calculation which proves this, which I agree with, but, I always thougth that healing more presents more of the hull in the water creating greater friction loss and not the most efficient means of sailing. Cape Dory's have a hard time pointing, but they will not turn up as easily (not as tender) as the hull and keel designs more common today.

[Neil Gordon]

I always thougth that healing more presents more of the hull in the water creating greater friction loss and not the most efficient means of sailing.

If you're sailing with the rail in the water, the effect of a bit more wetted surface is the least of it. More likely, if you're being slowed down it's from excessive weather helm and the extra rudder angle acting as a brake. Add to that a lessened ability to steer straight and VMG might be compromised, as well. We're not talking about 15 or 20 degrees of heel though; you need more than that to bury the rail on a CD28.

[rtbates]

Have you noticed that given whatever wind speed your 25D heels a lot more than the others?? IT SHOULD!

Randy and all:

Why I would think that with the full keels of the Cape Dory they would heel less because more water is "pushing against" the "windward side" of full keel than is "pushing against" a fin keel.

Please remember, I am a "tadpole" sailor with very limited experience. My only sailing experiences on a Cape Dory 25D have been "test sails". My new-to-me Cape Dory 25D will be arriving in South Florida in about one (1) month. I hope to put her in the water as soon as possible. Winds on Biscayne Bay in the Fall and Winter months generally tend to be 12-15 kts from the East.

Starfish, this is a great thread. Glad you started it

Not the case because CD are narrow, especially at the waterline, and have slack bilges. Hence initial stability is low, but once heeled stability keeps going up and up to around 125-130 degrees. IT AIN"T NO HUNTER!

[MFC]

Have you noticed that given whatever wind speed your 25D heels a lot more than the others?? IT SHOULD!

Randy and all:

Why I would think that with the full keels of the Cape Dory they would heel less because more water is "pushing against" the "windward side" of full keel than is "pushing against" a fin keel.

Robert -

A Cape Dory hull will heel more quickly at first than a boat with a wider beam (just about all newer designs).

Think of sitting in a narrow canoe vs sitting in a fat old rowboat -- the canoe is "tippier". This is called "initial stability". That is not the whole story with a displacement sailboat, however. There is also something called "ultimate stability". If you strap a few tons of lead down under the canoe, it can be essentially as stable as the rowboat (meaning it won't flip over) but it will still be tippy at the outset until that keel weight begins to counteract the topside forces. THAT, is what is happening on the Cape Dory -- the narrow beam makes it heel a lot before the keel weigh kicks (low initial stability) in but when it does, it stiffens up dramatically (high ultimate stability).

Matt

[rperrone]

It seems like on a 33. I can get her heeled over where the pots and pans, dishes, Oil Lamps, are all on the cabin floor, maybe closer to 40-50 deg pitch, but then she begins to dump air over the top of the main while the keel is steadily fighting to keep her from broaching. It would take both wind gust and wave together. I guess that is why we like her.

[Sea Hunt Video]

Starfish:

I hope I have not misdirected your thread. If so, I apologize.

Think of pulling someone back who's sitting on a swing. The first few feet are easy, because the arc is mostly horizontal. After that though, the force gets more and more vertical and it's you vs. gravity.

Finally, someone who understands what I mean when I say "keep it simple, I'm stupid". A kid on a swing. Now that is something I can relate to. I have fond memories of Mary Lou and I swinging on swings at the playground.

All kidding aside, Randy, rpperone, MFC and all, I really appreciate the information. I do recall learning that sailboats like ours CDs tend to heel over quickly at first and then resist further healing. I always thought it was because of the full keel and the large amount of weight in the keel (2,000+ lbs in the CD 25D; 900 lbs in the Ty Weekender) because it was a full keel sailboat.

I try to learn something new every day. I am grateful.

Starfish, again my apologies if this thread temporarily went on a tack away from your initial post.

[rtbates]

When I'm coaching someone, I often suggest that they come upwind until they feel the boat starting to stand up, then ease a little. At that point, the boat heels back a bit more, speeds up and generally feels right.

This is over-simplified, of course, but it keeps people from pinching.

I think that the Alberg designs provide a lot of feedback for "seat of the pants" sailing.

I wouldn't underestimate their abilities in light air, either. My 27 is surprisingly good in light air, far more than I ever would have expected. It's not what I would call "close-winded", but if I foot off a bit, she will do , e.g. 5 knots in 8 knots of wind.

(Edited to correct an error about VMG)

The stronger the wind the less looking I need to do. In 15+ one should be able to sail to windward literally with your eyes closed.