Upwind sailing questions

[Starfish]

Hi Folks,

This past weekend, my sailing partner and I sailed in a race for the first time. While it was fun, we did think our upwind sailing performance was bad!! So, I am looking to the Board for some tips, suggestions, etc.

The wind conditions were moderate and we had the boat trimmed close-hauled but didn't make much progress towards the upwind mark.

How close to the wind can a CD 25D sail?

We noted that when we sailed the boat as close as we could, she would slow down (let's say we did 4 kts.). The main was a little soft, and the boom pulled in as close to the stern quarter as we could without going into irons. The traveler was all the way "out". (of note, if we pulled it in a notch or so, we could get the boom in closer).

If we kept the boat sailing as above, and fell off slightly, the boat picked up speed, and the sail filled better. Tell tales still were out straight. We were able to gain about a full knot.

But.............is so doing, although the boat sails faster, we were off course more, in that we were not sailing a more direct course to the mark off the wind.

So, what does one do? Sail close hauled, and go slower, but more directly to the mark, or sail off the wind, go faster, but have a longer course to cover?

Does this make any sense?????

Thanks, Linda

[Jeff and Sarah]

This is one of the favorite post-race debates. Whether to pinch or foot. What you described as your method is called 'pinching'. Footing is putting the bow down a little off the wind and sailing farther but faster. In a given fleet, you'll see sailors do well either way- it often just comes down to individual technique. Two of the best racers I know are stark opposites of eachother. One pinches so high he seems mad while the other foots so low you wonder if he knows where he's going. Both consistently win races.

My take is that you need to consider your boat and equipment. Older sails don't pinch well (in my opinion) and lend towards footing. That's partly because you end up with so much twist at the top of a blown out sail that you can't get the fine profile pinching requires. In these cases you might bring your traveler up near center line and sheet out a little when you need to go high, but lower the traveler and sheet in when you are pressing the bow for speed.

On a Cape Dory, I'd tend to foot. The boat is just too darn heavy to take the slower route. Light boats pinch well but they do lose their momentum quickly if they luff. It will take several (several hundred?) races for you to develop your technique- no matter how many people like me try to convince you one way or another. In the end, comfortable is fast- if you are comfortable with how the boat is sailing you'll relax and have better focus. If you are uncomfortable with your technique you'll let your mind cloud with doubts distracting you from what's happening on the race course.

Best of luck out there! Remember, stay wide approaching the marks and stay tight to them as you round onto the next leg.

[Neil Gordon]

VMG is the rate at which you near the next mark, even when you can't sail directly toward it. Your GPS will display both your speed (over ground) and VMG.

[Joe Myerson]

Hi Starfish:

My 25D has never been great at racing. IMHO, I think it is one of the slowest Cape Dory designs, with its short waterline and high topsides.

I'm ready to take some hits for that comment, but it's interesting that the person who sold me my genoa jib (more on that sail later) is a nationally ranked racing sailor. When I told him that I had a 25D, he shook his head and said, "That's a slow boat. My parents owned one when I was growing up, and we always finished near the back of the fleet."

But, in any case, I'd agree with Jeff and Sarah about tending not to pinch in a Cape Dory.

Sails are a big factor--are yours relatively new, or have they lost much of their shape, and therefore their ability to make a good airfoil to provide lift?

Another big factor is the size and cut of your jib. Do you have a genoa? If so, do you know what the size is? For the first two or three seasons that I owned Creme Brulee, I sailed with a working jib, and I not only sailed badly in our club's "anything that sails" races, but I also watched other 25Ds outsail me.

Now that I've got a 130% genoa, my boat performs beautifully, at least in comparison to those first few seasons.

If you're sailing on Cape Cod Bay (I think you said earlier that you were keeping the boat in P-Town), you probably should have a fairly full genny. And, IMHO, you should avoid pinching if you can.

A good rule of thumb: sail by the telltales on your jib. Get them to stream parallel and straight aft on both surfaces of the sail. Then trim your main so that the telltales on your leech are all streaming aft. Don't worry about ballooning in the mainsail.

Above all, enjoy your 25D -- it's a wonderful little pocket cruiser, and while it might not be the fastest in light air, in heavier air, especially with a reefed main and a nice full genny, it really holds its own.

WARNING: I am not much of a racer, so wait until somebody more expert comments.

Best of luck,

--Joe

[Jeff and Sarah]

Another important point to your question is to watch how the tell tales at the top and bottom of the jib move. Before a race, sail close hauled and turn slightly into the wind just until the first tell tales start to flap on the windward side of the jib. If the top tell tales flap first, move your jib leads forward. If the bottom tell tales flap first, move the jib leads back. Make adjustments until they all flap at the same time. General settings are light winds need the leeds forward. Heavier winds will require the leads to move back. Light marks along the lead track with grease pencil will help you identify the right spot for different settings. Once you get this right you'll be able to carry a little more speed close to the wind (though I'd still favor footing off just a bit).

[JWSutcliffe]

Let's face it, no Cape Dory is ever going to be a good light air boat, regardless of PHRF. If light air racing is your thing, get a clorox bottle design. In the local annual charity race 2 years ago, which is an 18 mile course for cruising class boats, we had virtually no wind all day. I radioed in as DNF at the 10 mile point after the light weight, flatter bottomed boats were already crossing the finish line.

BUT in anything over 10 knot breezes we do have a chance. Forget pinching - all our CDs were designed with a short waterline and long overhangs. In order to take advantage of that beating upwind you need to get the rail down closer to the water, thereby lenghtening the waterline and increasing your effective hull speed. Fall a bit further off the wind than the newer flat bottom boats, take advantage of the characteristic we have of heel stiffness increasing as heel angle increases, and go!

[mattlydon]

i've noticed in our club races that most folks keep the main too sheeted in - thus the boat isn't balanced, adding weather helm and it's associated drag, slowing you down. I've passed much more modern boats in my 28 by a knot or more in light air by keeping off the sheet.

try it for yourself - after you think you have everything trimmed right, ease the main a bit and check your speed.

matt

[mattlydon]

i've noticed in our club races that most folks keep the main too sheeted in - thus the boat isn't balanced, adding weather helm and it's associated drag, slowing you down. I've passed much more modern boats in my 28 by a knot or more in light air by keeping off the sheet.

try it for yourself - after you think you have everything trimmed right, ease the main a bit and check your speed.

matt

[Stan W.]

Maximizing boat speed is almost always more beneficial than pointing a couple of degrees higher. The only time I would pinch is if it would allow me to squeeze inside another boat as we were both approaching the same mark.

I'm not following your description of how you had your mainsail trimmed. It sounds like your traveler was to leeward of the center-line and that is not what you want in a "moderate" wind.

In any event, on a beat in our boats, the genoa is by far the more important sail and the mainsail is best thought of as the genoa's trim flap. Sheet the genoa until it is about a handsbreadth from the spreader (perhaps two handsbreadths in light wind, virtually touching in a good breeze) and then steer to the genoa's tell-tales (I'm assuming sail twist is correct). Then use the mainsheet and the traveler to work the mainsail in as far as you can without stalling the tell-tales on the leach. In moderate wind, it may look like the mainsail is still luffing. You can get rid of some that bubble by moving the traveler to windward but don't over do it. What is happening at the leach is much more important than what is happening at the luff and by far the most common "rookie" mistake is overtrimming (i.e., stalling) the mainsail.

[kerlandsen]

Reading that word reminded me of something.
I think this came to mind while browsing in my dad's book called "Sail Power". The book with the birds eye view of a guy operating a coffee grinder on one of the first generation 12's that had a coffee grinder.

I will explain what I learned in my own words. Don't quote me:
"A sail that is overtrimmed, in too far, is slower than a sail that is undertrimmed by the same amount. "

Of course there are many that will argue with the statement, but what it tells me is that the eddy'ing and stalling going on behind an overtrimmed sail is far more harmful than a little bit of luffing at the luff of the sail. This of course leads to having it perfect all the time, no stalling and no luffing.

K

[Duncan]

When I'm coaching someone, I often suggest that they come upwind until they feel the boat starting to stand up, then ease a little. At that point, the boat heels back a bit more, speeds up and generally feels right.

This is over-simplified, of course, but it keeps people from pinching.

I think that the Alberg designs provide a lot of feedback for "seat of the pants" sailing.

I wouldn't underestimate their abilities in light air, either. My 27 is surprisingly good in light air, far more than I ever would have expected. It's not what I would call "close-winded", but if I foot off a bit, she will do , e.g. 5 knots in 8 knots of wind.

(Edited to correct an error about VMG)

[Paul D.]

I too will throw my support for reducing over-trimming and for footing instead of pinching. Both in my old Typhoon and now on the Femme (especially with my 30 year old Vector sails!) I've noticed much better speed when I trimmed the main then eased it a bit just till the luff would flutter a bit. (How I long for a new Sailrite kit, heavy sewing machine and a month off!)

Upwind, definitely steer to the genny as mentioned above and try not to pinch. Sail a little lower but faster. For us on the lake, you get good experience sailing to the wind and its capricious shifts. It's great training. Try to find your boat's sweet spot by luffing and falling off at different wind speeds. I think it is a rather fun part of sailing.

With our old Typhoon and new Sailrite sails as well as a magnificent mylar genny I got for a song, we passed M scows in light air and zephyrs. I couldn't believe it and boy did it piss those guys off. But the 1000lbs of lead and the Alberg magic, or should I say earned wisdom, carried us past the scows that would plane and then stop repeatedly.

New sails and a little good old focus is great for making our CD's go. And it is fun.

Good luck,

[MFC]

It's not what I would call "close-winded", but if I foot off a bit, she will do , e.g. 5 knots VMG in 8 knots of wind.

Really? I could see 5kn VMG DDW (or some deep, more efficient, reach) but I can't begin to imagine how you are getting 5kn VMG toward an upwind waypoint. Do you mean 5kn SOG?

Matt

[Duncan]

It's not what I would call "close-winded", but if I foot off a bit, she will do , e.g. 5 knots VMG in 8 knots of wind.

Really? I could see 5kn VMG DDW (or some deep, more efficient, reach) but I can't begin to imagine how you are getting 5kn VMG toward an upwind waypoint. Do you mean 5kn SOG?

Matt

Sorry, you are quite right, speed over the ground.

My point is that the hull is easily driven. Despite its weight and wetted surface, good speeds seem to be attainable in light winds.

[MFC]

It's not what I would call "close-winded", but if I foot off a bit, she will do , e.g. 5 knots VMG in 8 knots of wind.

Really? I could see 5kn VMG DDW (or some deep, more efficient, reach) but I can't begin to imagine how you are getting 5kn VMG toward an upwind waypoint. Do you mean 5kn SOG?

Matt

My point is that the hull is easily driven. Despite its weight and wetted surface, good speeds seem to be attainable in light winds.

I agree. I have been pleasantly surprised by the light air performance of the 330.

Not so much by its ability to go to weather (I actually expected it to do well in that regard) but some of that is certainly my inexperience with the rig and also the age of the sails.