Self-tailing Genoa winches for a Cape Dory 25D

Sea Hunt Video · Post by **Sea Hunt Video** » Aug 13th, '11, 20:32

I am starting to make a list of a few things I would initially like to do with my new-to-me 1982 Cape Dory 25D when she arrives in South Florida in October.

One of the items I am considering is installing self-tailing Genoa winches - primarily because I will be single handing 95% of the time. I think self-tailing winches will make it easier for me to control tacks, jibes, etc.

About a year ago I looked at a beautiful Cape Dory 25D on which the owner had installed Lewmar 16 bronze self-tailing Genoa winches. They looked very nice.

I have checked the Lewmar website and it appears they no longer make these. I am not computer literate so it is possible I just could not find the right place on the Lewmar website.

Does anyone know of a place to find Lewmar 16 bronze self-tailing Genoa winches

Are there any recommendations for a different brand that would still be bronze and self-tailing

I tried looking at Harken but, again, given my limited computer skills, could not find any.

Finally, what are the thoughts of Cape Dory 25D sailors about installing self-tailing Genoa winches

I am a very inexperienced sailor and I will be single handing most of the time. I will have a Raymarine ST 2000 but will probably not be using it much since it involves a lot of electronics and electronics and I do not get along very well together.

Thanks in advance for any and all information, advise, etc. It is a very steep learning curve, especially when you are hampered by being very dumb.

pete faga · Post by **pete faga** » Aug 13th, '11, 21:21

Hi Robert. You might find out what you have is sufficient as the last owner! Try a season with what you have and then be the judge as what you need.

trapper · Post by **trapper** » Aug 13th, '11, 23:04

Great news, you found your 25D.

When I first got Saga, I saw a pair of self-tailing bronze lemars on ebay. Ben would not let me get them. As it turns out, I think Pete is right (and Ben too). I get along fine without them.

But, if you really want them, Defender has both Lemar and Harken in bronze. The Lemar are 656 each and the Harken are almost $1200 each.

One of the best improvements to Saga (besides air conditioning) are Spartan mid-rail cleat/chocks. I first saw them on a CD36 at my club and I had to have them. They are great if you are in a slip, probably not so much if you are on a mooring--I guess same goes for air conditioning--not so much at a mooring.

Best of luck with your new boat. Post some pics soon.

RIKanaka · Post by **RIKanaka** » Aug 14th, '11, 00:04

Robert,

I mostly single-hand my CD26 and find that I don't use the self-tailing feature of my genoa winches very often. I use the winch without a handle to haul in the sheets but then just cleat them on the coaming cleat, as you probably did on the Tadpole.

pete faga · Post by **pete faga** » Aug 14th, '11, 07:50

Hi Robert. I don't know if they still make the attachment/retrofit that fits on to your winches to make them self tailing.I would imagine it would be less $ than new winches.As far as efficiency you might check the archives and see what you can dig up. good luck!

RIKanaka · Post by **RIKanaka** » Aug 14th, '11, 07:54

Barton Winchers

Steve Laume · Post by **Steve Laume** » Aug 14th, '11, 08:28

When I bought Raven I made a point of not changing anything until I evaluated the way the boat was set up for a season. Things I might have changed right away seemed less important after a while. Some things I never considered or knew were a problem reviled themselves.

As far as self tailing winches are concerned, I am a rather happy idiot. That is I have never had them and therefore don't see the need. They must be great as so many seem to spend large amounts of money, replacing perfectly good winches with self tailers. Either that or there is a very good marketing campaign to promote their sales. Let's face it, most winches will outlast the boats they are on. If manufactures want to sell product they are going to have to reach a market beyond new boats. If their original stuff lasts forever they had best come up with a product and heavily promote it to replace the existing winches and increase sales.

On Raven I will generally try to time my sheet handling so I haul in most of the line while luffing. Once the boat is on course, I will use the handle to achieve final trim and then cleat off the line. Minor sail adjustments do require me to recleat but it is a sailboat and you are supposed to be playing with lines, tying knots and cleating things. If I was racing, single handed, I might want self tailing winches. Then again I might want a different boat instead.

You could certainly sail with the existing winches and might find more pressing things to spend the rather large amount of money on. I have never had a problem with cranking and tailing while single handing, Steve.

Dick Kobayashi · Post by **Dick Kobayashi** » Aug 14th, '11, 08:35

I thought I needed ST winches for a while and then I realized that effort in using a winch only is only really required after the 85% of the sheet is hauled in. The ST winches require the same wrapping of the line around the winch, manually pulling in 85% of the sheet length and you only use the ST apparatus for the last 15% +/-. So ok, that's handy, but the only difference in trimming the last 15% is that with a self-tailer you are using one hand - not two. I find that since I am not a racer and don't have do perform tasks especially quickly I don't really need STs. Or put another way, the modest speed/convenience gain is not worth more than a thousand dollars. I second the recommendation that you work with what you have got for a while, as you gain familiarity with the boat you'll learn what you really need. In fact, I got a lot of benefit from adding a Harken Traveler and getting rid of the Original pretty non-functional traveler. This was a $500 item and to me worth it.

As to the TP2000. You will love it. I never do more than set it up and hit auto when I am on the approximate heading then I use the buttons to make finer adjustments. I never bother with it for tacking and have never thought of wiring it into my GPS or wind direction indicator (my finger and ears).

The 25D is a lovely craft. Gain familiarity with the basics and build your confidence - then see what gizmos you really need.

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » Aug 14th, '11, 15:28

Hi Robert:

I'd agree with the other voices of experience on the self-tailing winches:

As Peter and Steve recommend, try a season without the ST, on the assumption that the previous owner was happy with the systems that he sold you.

My PO left me a set of rubber "Winchers," which he said he didn't like particularly. However, I've been using them for 7 seasons and find that they do help turn standard winches into (almost) self-tailers.

As for the autopilot: Go for it! Especially since most of your sailing will be singlehanded, spring for a ST-2000, and you'll always have a reliable, uncomplaining crew member.

And Fran is correct about midship cleats. The 25D doesn't have then, and IMHO they are a great addition to the boat. That said, I have never put them on Creme Brulee, even though they're high on the "to-do" list. (If your boat is going to be in a slip, you might consider getting one of those Schaeffer Marine cleats that attach to the genoa track. But they're very costly.)

Best of luck!
--Joe

barfwinkle · Post by **barfwinkle** » Aug 14th, '11, 16:37

Robert

At one point in time I too wanted self-tailers but couldn't afford them, so I went with the aforementioned winchers. After a while I quit using them and I finally cut them off. BTW they are hazardous to finger tips during the installation process!

Someone posted that they just use the standard winches. That is what I do. FOR ME self-tailing is just not practical. FOR ME!

Fair winds.

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » Aug 14th, '11, 18:20

barfwinkle wrote: BTW they are hazardous to finger tips during the installation process!

Bill,

You're not alone in disparaging Winchers, but I do find that they help.

BTW, there were two bottles of kids' bubble-blowing liquid on Creme Brulee when I bought her. Since the PO and his wife didn't seem like the types to play with bubbles, I assumed that they used the soapy liquid to lubricate something. I applied some of it to the Winchers, and they were much easier--and less treacherous--to install.

--Joe

satu · Post by **satu** » Aug 14th, '11, 21:13

I installed a pair of bronze 16 ST Lewmars on my CD27 about a month ago. They look and function wonderfully. Purchased them from Defender. Enjoyed sailing SATU for nearly 20 years without them, but the necessity of cleating and recleating while tweeking sails is honestly not something I'll miss.

Like most things, it comes down to priorities and finance. I have invested substantially in an assortment of upgrades to SATU recently and have not looked back once. ....

Wingaersheek II · Post by **Wingaersheek II** » Aug 14th, '11, 21:45

Hi Robert:

Iâ€™m going to echo what others have said. I have a CD-27 that I single-hand ~90% of the time. I donâ€™t have self-tailing winches and I have never missed them. If I HAD to replace the winches, I would probably put self-tailers on, but thereâ€™s no way I replace them for the sole purpose of getting this added convenience. I agree with Steve Laume; that is, sail your boat for a while as is and if you believe self-tailing winches are worth the expense, then go for it.

Also, donâ€™t be intimidated by your Tiller Pilot â€“ itâ€™s incredibly easy to use. It will free your hands to trim the sails, eat lunch, answer the call of nature, just take a break on a long passage or deal with an emergency. If you didnâ€™t already have one, itâ€™s what Iâ€™d encourage you to spend your money on. I donâ€™t have roller-furling or self-tailing winches, but I carry a spare Tiller Pilot.

Regards,
Jim Lemley

Sea Hunt Video · Post by **Sea Hunt Video** » Aug 14th, '11, 21:49

Thanks to everyone for all the great replies, suggestions, etc.

I am not in any particular hurry to change things on my new-to-me Cape Dory 25D. I had been thinking of ST winches for some time as an addition to any CD 25D I acquired. I may sail for a while without. Unfortunately, I am (and will probably remain) a poor sailor at best.

I will need all the help I can get.

I checked the Lewmar website and noticed they were no longer made. That is why I was thinking of purchasing them ASAP before stocked supplies run out. I'll check with Defender.

While the prior two owners never changed the winches, it is important to know that the person who sold her to me owned her for about 14 years. He was (and is) a life long sailor and long time instructor. He has forgotten more skills than I will ever learn. Again, I need all the help I can get. That is one of the reasons I am also thinking of installing a "stack pack" or equivalent. Fodder for a separate post.

Trapper, you asked about pictures. I would like to post some of her when she arrives in South Florida. Unfortunately, recalling that I am a dummy, I still do not know how to post pictures to this website. I have asked, but my friend OJ refuses to let me hook up with his college co-ed friend who is apparently a computer whiz.

Bob Chinn and all, thanks for the references to "winchers". I have seen them on a few sailboats. However, I have never really heard anyone say anything good about them.

Dick K., I actually now own a Raymarine ST 2000. It came with the purchase of my CD 25D. It is brand new, in the box, never been opened. As I said, electronics and I do not play well together. I am not sure I will ever figure out how to use it.

I think the prior owner installed midship cleats. I will check. I have looked at so many Cape Dory 25Ds that their individual characteristics are all starting to merge together

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Aug 14th, '11, 23:31

Hey Robert,

If you like, I can send the cheerleader's alternate tutor, Bruno the football teams noseguard down there to help you over the high hurdles of computerworld. He's clumbsy but tries. He means well.

Bruno would have a field day toying with your new Raymarine ST 2000. He doesn't have the foggiest idea what one is.

Don't even think about FiFi the cheerleader. She has her hands full teaching me new things. I'm talking about computers.

O J

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