Cetol Over Varnish ??

[A. Andrus]

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.



andrus@sprintmail.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish.<<

You won't get the best finish, but it's better than peeling varnish and half varnished and half graying teak.

I have the same problem... 23 years of varnish in too many coats to count. Chemical strippers and sanding barely make a dent. I scrape the varnish as it continues to lift off, at the edges in partiular. I've used Cetol over the bare wood. Is a lot better than it was, and the boat won't be harmed if there's some residual varnish. There's been no problem with the areas where the Cetol has gone over patches of varnish.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[eric]

Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the varnish? I think it is still far and away the nicest looking finish, although more work. ONce it's on, tho, getting rid of it is more work than it's worth, IMHO

EW

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.

[Bill Goldsmith]

It sounds like the varnish is remaining in the "valleys" or low spots on the teak. Attempting to sand it all off will, indeed, take away alot of good teak. Try this technique: heat the varnish with a heat gun until it jsut starts to bubble (Not too long or you will darken the wood around it!!!). Then quicky scrub off the offending varnish with a scotchbrite pad. Then if you want, you can treat the teak with one of the two part teak cleaners (such as Te-Ka) that claim to remove traces of varnish as well. Very caustic stuff, though.

Best regards,

Bill Goldsmith

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.

goldy@bestweb.net

[Dale Weston]

I stripped all my teak by the harsh chemical method in Oct 98. I used stripper with a scraper and then bronze wool, did some sanding, and then the 2-part cleaner. I think I got 99.42% of the old finish off. Then I did 3 coats of Cetol part 1 and the 3 coats of TGL Gloss. I also confess that I sort of planned to save the companionway coaming and hatchboards for another day, so I just sanded a little and put on the Cetol. These areas look as good and have held up as well as the rest.

Oh, and I buy my Cetol at the local painting supply store for $14.95/quart. The manager claims to have observed the manufacturing process at Sikkens. The process he describes is that they run a batch of cans through the machine to fill them. This batch then gets labels put on to match their orders. Some cans get the expensive marine labels and some only get the regular exterior labels. . . With modest touch up to wear areas, mine looks pretty good.



majortest@earthlink.net

[A. Andrus]

My teak had gone untreated for 19 years. It looked fine but was dull and grey and a little weather worn. Last year I cleaned and sanded and applied three coats of varnish, all according to directions. Within three months my varnish was flaking and the teak was looking grey and dull again. Now it looked worse then before. Since I had to do it over to get the finish I wanted, I decided to go with Cetol because of the good reports I have read and results I have seen.

Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the varnish? I think it is still far and away the nicest looking finish, although more work. ONce it's on, tho, getting rid of it is more work than it's worth, IMHO

EW

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.

andrus@sprintmail.com

[sloopjohnl]

three coats is just a start! the first three coats of varnish should be thinned to get good penetration. it is not until the fourth or fifth coats that full strength varnish is applied. eight coats would be a minimum for any kind of expected durability.



My teak had gone untreated for 19 years. It looked fine but was dull and grey and a little weather worn. Last year I cleaned and sanded and applied three coats of varnish, all according to directions. Within three months my varnish was flaking and the teak was looking grey and dull again. Now it looked worse then before. Since I had to do it over to get the finish I wanted, I decided to go with Cetol because of the good reports I have read and results I have seen.

Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the varnish? I think it is still far and away the nicest looking finish, although more work. ONce it's on, tho, getting rid of it is more work than it's worth, IMHO

EW

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.

[Larry DeMers]

Teak has a natural oil in it that will continuously put pressure (hydrostaticly)on the underside surface of any occluding seal such as varnish. This pressure will eventualy lift the varnish even if there was no outside damage to start the process.

8 coats of varnish will certainly last longer before failure from UV sources, and thinning the first 4 coats of varnish for better penetration will also improve the adhesion, possibly doubling the time before the stuff lifts off the teak...but it *will* lift eventually, dry out, crack and flake off. It is the nature of varnish, or any occluding sealer on teak.

Cetol and I suspect Armada also, are finishes that harden into a surface with millions of micropores that penetrate to the surface of the wood. These pores release the internal pressure caused by the natural oil in teak, as well as moisture trapped in the wood that wants to escape -all without lifting the finish off the surface.

That's why we completely refinished our CD30 5 years ago. My cockpit has 8 coats of Cetol on it..as does the whole boat actually. 2 Base coats of the Cetol Marine, followed by 6 coats of gloss applied with a foam brush. We used a scotchbrtie pad on the wood between coats, followed by a tack ragging.
In the cockpit, the last overcoating of gloss was done 3 years ago, and you can still see your face in the finish! The only upkeep is a washing with boatsoap occasionally.

Higher traffic areas like toe rails and bow sprit get an overcoating of gloss every spring, after the dings are found and repaired.

To me, and virtually everybody I know, Cetol/Armada has been one of the best inventions for the boater, saving hundreds of hours of work in every marina. True, the gloss is slightly better with 8 coats of spar varnish..I did that for 16 years on a wood boat, but never again. I prefer to sail rather than sit in the dock and varnish.

Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

My teak had gone untreated for 19 years. It looked fine but was dull and grey and a little weather worn. Last year I cleaned and sanded and applied three coats of varnish, all according to directions. Within three months my varnish was flaking and the teak was looking grey and dull again. Now it looked worse then before. Since I had to do it over to get the finish I wanted, I decided to go with Cetol because of the good reports I have read and results I have seen.

Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about the varnish? I think it is still far and away the nicest looking finish, although more work. ONce it's on, tho, getting rid of it is more work than it's worth, IMHO

EW

I plan to use Cetol on my teak. I previously varnished and was very dissatisfied. I have sanded, attempting to sand off the old varnish. There are still traces of varnish on my teak after sanding. Is it absolutely necessary to go down to bare wood in order to use Cetol or can I use Cetol over the traces of varnish. I am afraid that if I keep sanding I will watch my teak disappear. CD-27, Alandel.

demers@sgi.com

[Jon]

I've been using Cetol (regular) for several years now. I think you will like it so long as you don't put on more than three coats initially. If you put on a fourth or fifth coat of Cetol, it will become jaundiced looking. For spring touch up, all you need is some light sanding by hand and one more coat. The Cetol is water permeable too, so water can not get trapped behind it and turn black. It doesn't come off in flakes either - it's more like an ablative paint. You just notice it looks a bit thin after a while.

Good Luck,
Jon



Ringj@mediaone.net

[Michael Stephano]

>That's why we completely refinished our CD30 5 years ago. My cockpit has 8 coats of Cetol on it..as does the whole boat actually. 2 Base coats of the Cetol Marine, followed by 6 coats of gloss applied with a foam brush. We used a scotchbrtie pad on the wood between coats, followed by a tack ragging.
In the cockpit, the last overcoating of gloss was done 3 years ago, and you can still see your face in the finish! The only upkeep is a washing with boatsoap occasionally. <

I contacted the folks at Armada and asked about more than the three coats reccomended. There explination is that three coats allows the wood to breath moisture through the pourous finish keeping it from popping like varnish does. They did not recomend more than three coats. I have been using Armada for 2 years and have had to repair chafe regularly. It is still easyer than varnish but still requires regular maint. I am interested in what you have done with the multiple coats. Have you had any checking or water trapped under the finish.



mundo@visi.net

[Michael Heintz]

Cetol is the way to go!!! I have worked on wooden boats for many years, and when the choice to redo my teak came up I was not sure. However, I did use the cetol and it is great. I did the three coats as recommended and she looks great. I did found that it is very forgiving. If you have a slight residue of varnish, what I did was to used a scrapper and VERY GENTLY scrap that area of varnish traces, this seemed enough to get the hard surface off. I found that where it was not PERFECTLY SCRAPPED, did not seem to matter much, the cetol is forgiving, followed by a light hand sanding with 220. Also do not forget to used Acetone rub down prior to ctol, this too seemed to take of varnish residue. NOTE I used Sikkens Ctol Marine LIGHT this is the best, it does not put down that "flat orange" look that you so often see on cetol refinished teak.

Good luck

Michael Heintz
"Macht Nichts" CD 30 MK II 004



mzenith@aol.com

[Jon Miller]

Question:
Are you using Cetol on the entire deck or just places such as inner most and outer most boards, bow, and aft decks?



jonmesq@aol.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>Are you using Cetol on the entire deck or just places such as inner most and outer most boards, bow, and aft decks?<<

There's no wood on the deck. The Cetol is going everywhere there is exterior wood, though.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Larry DeMers]

We have not had problems with lifting or moisture trapped, but even the gloss finish does abrade off in the most active areas. I have some areas where the dock lines will lay across the toe rail and that will wear through over the summer. But we have also noticed that the toe rail is in need of a complete stripping down to the first coat..not bare wood, and reapplying the gloss, thinned a tad. We applied it in the spring, in 45 degree weather, so it went on thickly, even though we preheated the can up to about 75 deg. The finish went on thickly as you would expect, but it did not have the flexibility as the later applied cetol. The result was a rather large radius at the 90 deg. turn on the rub rails, which looks goofy, not sharp.
So we goofed up with that application a bit. Over all, I like Cetol a heck of a lot, due to the looks achieved with the amount of work it takes to get it.
Too many coats that were not allowed to dry will end up with a cloudy and lumpy finish that looks too thick..sorta like decoupage varnish. After about 3 coats, you need at least a weeks drying time..preferably two, I find.

Hope this helps you,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

>That's why we completely refinished our CD30 5 years ago. My cockpit has 8 coats of Cetol on it..as does the whole boat actually. 2 Base coats of the Cetol Marine, followed by 6 coats of gloss applied with a foam brush. We used a scotchbrtie pad on the wood between coats, followed by a tack ragging.
In the cockpit, the last overcoating of gloss was done 3 years ago, and you can still see your face in the finish! The only upkeep is a washing with boatsoap occasionally. <

I contacted the folks at Armada and asked about more than the three coats reccomended. There explination is that three coats allows the wood to breath moisture through the pourous finish keeping it from popping like varnish does. They did not recomend more than three coats. I have been using Armada for 2 years and have had to repair chafe regularly. It is still easyer than varnish but still requires regular maint. I am interested in what you have done with the multiple coats. Have you had any checking or water trapped under the finish.

demers@sgi.com