I was contemplating switching over to internally run wire to rope halyards. On first blush, it seems like wire rope isn't particularly strong - the 5/16ths t-900 I currently have on the main is rated at 7300lbs breaking, regular stayset-x in 3/8ths is rated at 5000lbs or so, 5/16ths rated at 4500lbs.
7x19 seems to run 3/16ths @3700lbs, 1/4" @ 6400lbs - so comparable strength seems to lie between the two - however, at that diameter, the stuff's fairly heavy compared to rope.
Anyone doing it, and what diameter are you using?
BTW, I have a CD28....
TIA,
Matt
Wire to rope halyards?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Just idle thoughts...the kind that usually end up costing me
Not particularly - 2 separate projects. I'm interested in going internal so that I can use the 2 additional sheaves for a topping lift and spare halyard. A backstay halyard would be sweet too, to fly a nice-sized ensign, if I could figure out how to rig it so it doesn't interfere with my rjoac
As far as wire goes, I was under the impression that wire was superior to rope for it's resistance to stretch. The minimal length of rope between the rope/wire splice and the winch contributes an extremely small amount of give compared to 30 feet of halyard.
Also, I think that the smaller diameter wire can better handle going over a single sheave - as the stock rig has line going over 2 sheaves, each turn only 90 degrees, effectively increasing total sheave 'size', a single sheave is at a 2x disadvantage as far as sheave 'overhead'.
The reduced diameter of the wire improves the rope diameter/sheave size ratio, counteracting the increased angular drag.
Finally, the combination of internal rig and wire drastically reduces windage when the sails are furled. I could be wrong about any of these assumptions, or over-thinking the whole issue, which is why I was asking for experienced opinions....
Thanks,
Matt
As far as wire goes, I was under the impression that wire was superior to rope for it's resistance to stretch. The minimal length of rope between the rope/wire splice and the winch contributes an extremely small amount of give compared to 30 feet of halyard.
Also, I think that the smaller diameter wire can better handle going over a single sheave - as the stock rig has line going over 2 sheaves, each turn only 90 degrees, effectively increasing total sheave 'size', a single sheave is at a 2x disadvantage as far as sheave 'overhead'.
The reduced diameter of the wire improves the rope diameter/sheave size ratio, counteracting the increased angular drag.
Finally, the combination of internal rig and wire drastically reduces windage when the sails are furled. I could be wrong about any of these assumptions, or over-thinking the whole issue, which is why I was asking for experienced opinions....
Thanks,
Matt
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Neil Gordon
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>>As far as wire goes, I was under the impression that wire was superior to rope for it's resistance to stretch. The minimal length of rope between the rope/wire splice and the winch contributes an extremely small amount of give compared to 30 feet of halyard. <<
I'm curious about this one. I understand stretch percentage, but my (rope) halyard is already tensioned with the winch. So how much stretch is actually left?
I'm curious about this one. I understand stretch percentage, but my (rope) halyard is already tensioned with the winch. So how much stretch is actually left?
Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
Re: Just idle thoughts...the kind that usually end up costin
Vat iss rioac pliss?mattlydon wrote:...A backstay halyard would be sweet too, to fly a nice-sized ensign, if I could figure out how to rig it so it doesn't interfere with my rjoac...
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Steve Laume
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I believe the wire / rope spliced halyards became popular in the days of three strand, when stretch was a major issue.
There are lots of options out there today for extremely strong low stretch lines. Less trouble, weight and noise.
I know there are boats who have converted to using only one sheave and running internally. This would make me slightly nervous. Putting all the stress on one turning point and dealing with a problem could be difficult if it occurred inside the mast. There is a lot of "junk" inside.
I addressed some of your concerns in different ways. A spinnaker bail and halyard could also be used as a spare jib halyard or possibly even raise a main at least to the first reef. It is easy to install. For the topping lift I used Amsteel Dyneema to replace the standing part. For the running portion at the end of the boom I used standard braid. Instead of running this to a cleat at the end of the boom where it was difficult to access I took it foreward to a cleat near the gooseneck. This eliminates a block at the masthead and reduces the length of the line. It still allows you to adjust the topping lift at the mast.
For the flag halyard I simply went up two thirds of the length of the back stay and seized a a small block to it. The fact that it does not go all the way to the masthead helps to eliminate sag that might interfere with your roach. One of those clam on cleats allows you to raise and lower the ensign from the comfort of the cockpit when the sun goes down.
On the windage issue the internals would be hard to beat. With some of the modern lines I am sure you could go down in diameter without losing strength. The halyards are close enough to the mast that the air might already be disturbed enough in that area that the lines would not add significantly to the windage.
Internals would certainly clean up the mast but only by half when not sailing, Steve.
There are lots of options out there today for extremely strong low stretch lines. Less trouble, weight and noise.
I know there are boats who have converted to using only one sheave and running internally. This would make me slightly nervous. Putting all the stress on one turning point and dealing with a problem could be difficult if it occurred inside the mast. There is a lot of "junk" inside.
I addressed some of your concerns in different ways. A spinnaker bail and halyard could also be used as a spare jib halyard or possibly even raise a main at least to the first reef. It is easy to install. For the topping lift I used Amsteel Dyneema to replace the standing part. For the running portion at the end of the boom I used standard braid. Instead of running this to a cleat at the end of the boom where it was difficult to access I took it foreward to a cleat near the gooseneck. This eliminates a block at the masthead and reduces the length of the line. It still allows you to adjust the topping lift at the mast.
For the flag halyard I simply went up two thirds of the length of the back stay and seized a a small block to it. The fact that it does not go all the way to the masthead helps to eliminate sag that might interfere with your roach. One of those clam on cleats allows you to raise and lower the ensign from the comfort of the cockpit when the sun goes down.
On the windage issue the internals would be hard to beat. With some of the modern lines I am sure you could go down in diameter without losing strength. The halyards are close enough to the mast that the air might already be disturbed enough in that area that the lines would not add significantly to the windage.
Internals would certainly clean up the mast but only by half when not sailing, Steve.
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Neil Gordon
- Posts: 4367
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 17:25
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Steve,
>>A spinnaker bail and halyard could also be used as a spare jib halyard or possibly even raise a main at least to the first reef. <<
If you use the spin halyard for the jib, that leaves the jib halyard free for the main. The rig for each of the main and jib halyards is exactly the same, just port vs. stbd and the shackle is at the other end of the line. No shackle required for emergency use of the jib halyard to raise the main... a simple hitch will do and will raise the main to the masthead.
>>A spinnaker bail and halyard could also be used as a spare jib halyard or possibly even raise a main at least to the first reef. <<
If you use the spin halyard for the jib, that leaves the jib halyard free for the main. The rig for each of the main and jib halyards is exactly the same, just port vs. stbd and the shackle is at the other end of the line. No shackle required for emergency use of the jib halyard to raise the main... a simple hitch will do and will raise the main to the masthead.
Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
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John Vigor
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Re: Just idle thoughts...the kind that usually end up costin
Meester Duncan, ees very complicate. Where ve are coming from, the "j" she is silent, like "p" in bath. Also, "c" she sound like "ch" in chiz-'n-crackerz. So rjoach, she pronounce herself like cockroach, only no cock.Duncan wrote:Vat iss rjoac pliss?mattlydon wrote:...A backstay halyard would be sweet too, to fly a nice-sized ensign, if I could figure out how to rig it so it doesn't interfere with my rjoac...
Hokay?
Modern low-stretch line is comparable in stretch to wire. As previously stated, combination halyards become popular when using line that was made of materials that changed length considerably depending on load, temperature and moisture. Additionally, the halyards were often 3 strand which is stretchier than braid.
You will be changing the loads on the sheaves at the masthead if you convert to internal halyards. The loads will increase by approximately 43% and I don't know the designed factor of safety.
If you do go to a wire/rope halyard, make sure that you get sheaves specially made for it, the wire will destroy the sheaves that you currently have.
You will be changing the loads on the sheaves at the masthead if you convert to internal halyards. The loads will increase by approximately 43% and I don't know the designed factor of safety.
If you do go to a wire/rope halyard, make sure that you get sheaves specially made for it, the wire will destroy the sheaves that you currently have.
Typo, Duncan - I meant roach.
roach, roach, roach
sheaves are combo type
The sheaves on my masthead are 'combo' type - large enough for rope, but with a wire groove as well. Probably NOT good for my t-900.
So far, it's sounding a hell of a lot easier to leave all as is - maybe get new rope-only sheaves. I believe the T-900 likes flat bottom sheaves....
Matt
So far, it's sounding a hell of a lot easier to leave all as is - maybe get new rope-only sheaves. I believe the T-900 likes flat bottom sheaves....
Matt
You should have no issues using a single sheeve with line rather then the origonal 2 sheeve setup for external. I did exactly what you are proposing with my CD36, I converted to internal and gained 2 new sheeves. The extra aft one became my toppinglift/spare main halyard and the extra forward one became a spare jib halyard.
If you do this, any wires in the mast should be run in some sort of conduit now that you have running rigging going through there. Also, if you may find your mast stuffed with foam that is a nightmare to remove (that was my case).
If you do this, any wires in the mast should be run in some sort of conduit now that you have running rigging going through there. Also, if you may find your mast stuffed with foam that is a nightmare to remove (that was my case).
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
Re: Typo, Duncan - I meant roach.
Thanks. Sounds like they are on the march, thoughmattlydon wrote:roach, roach, roach
ah, easy for you to sayJohn Vigor wrote:... the "j" she is silent, like "p" in bath. Also, "c" she sound like "ch" in chiz-'n-crackerz. So rjoach, she pronounce herself like cockroach, only no cock.
Hokay?
that must be one in your avatar
sorry for the distraction, sail on!
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Dick Villamil
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wire to rope halyards
I have changed the wire/rope halyards on every boat I have ever had (5). I use StasetX since it has a great reputation and low stretch - and I race every week. With the new ylar headsails you don't need that much tension anyway. All it took was a meathook gouge in my thumb while winching the halyard and I was convinced that the rope was better. Also, winches and turning blocks take a beating with the wire. If you have dual masthead sheaves they have a groove for the wire and a wider portion for the rope. Just check to see which rope dimension is recommended. I used a 3/8" StaSet X for my 34' and it lasted 14 years until I sent the snap shackle to Rigging Only and had them make up one with 7/16" Staset X. It came back to Vermont within the week! They will advise you as to the size of the rope.