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I've found a number of lead ingots on the starboard side of my Cape Dory 28. The starboard lazarette was set up to hold three batteries, two of them in a shelf built high on the hull. Under this shelf, there were two 35lb ingots for a total of 70lbs. Judging by the paint, materials, construction and lay of the fiberglass around the construct, I believe that this was added as an afterthought, by the factory. There is also an additional 105lbs of lead in the starboard settee. The only asymmetric counterbalance on the port side was an 11 gallon aluminum diesel tank, which could never weigh more than 95lbs and often less. Batteries could have easily over counterbalanced the fuel, without the additional lead.
Could the layup of the boat have been so unbalanced that the lead was added? One anomaly is that the rudder stock is offset to starboard, as it protrudes from the floor of the cockpit. Could this indicate a disproportionate area of the deck is offset to the port side?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Baltimore, MD
Last edited by hilbert on Nov 8th, '12, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
I believe the best way to answer your question is to place a level across the forward rails with the in water boat completely empty. You have to work from a floating platform.
My CD 25 had a slight list to port which was addressed by repositioning my 2 batteries to starboard, and favoring starboard for chain and anchors storage.
When my boat is sitting on it's trailer, and the trailer frame is flush in x and z, the only level areas on my boat was found to be the forward rails and the cabin floor.
Hope this helps.
Dick
I have no direct experience, but I know that there is a post-production engineering note for Sabre 28s requiring some extra ballast on the port side. So it's not out of the question that some re-trimming was required.
The boat is out of the water and will remain so until I finish work on some projects.
I moved the batteries to the port side, to be under the electrical panel and next to the alternator and starter. To starboard, I installed a new fuel tank next to the lift pump. This made great sense to me at the time, but now I realize that I will be shifting weight to port (opposite of all the lead).
Our 33 has ingots beneath the starboard settee outboard of the water tank. Its just for trim ,and I have seen it on a lot of sailboats and motor boats. Things sometime are not exactly like they are on paper in real life, so it happens. As long as they are firmly secured their fine. I would leave them alone, and if after your refit you find there is a trim issue, you can adjust accordingly. Ours works out perfectly when the boat is cruise loaded. Can you attach some pictures of the rudder port and assembly you are talking about?
I have this picture from when I was replacing the core of the cockpit floor. The rudder stock is not in the center of the cockpit. It is offset about an inch to the left (starboard). I don't know if this is common or if there is any significance to it. I've also noticed that if I measure perpendicularly from the mast to the upper shrouds, one side is an inch off from the other. I need to confirm this the next time that I am at the boat.
I have no opinion if it is good or not. I would like to understand the imbalance, so I can use it to my advantage as I move tanks, batteries and systems about. I do believe that the lead ingots need to be firmly secured, which was not the case of the 7 ingots I found in the starboard settee.
A little offset on the rudder is not unusual especially with motorboats. It is commonly done to help compensate for the prop walk primarily in forward. Just like the rudders on a twin rudder motor boat also has some toe-in like the front end of a car. I have seen some sailboats with the prop exiting from the side with almost a 10-15 degree offset from the boats centerline. Boats are definitely interesting with all the different ideas builders and designers have. Anyway, I hope this helps. From your pictures, it looks like you have jumped in with both feet. Have fun with it.
tmsc wrote: ... A little offset on the rudder is not unusual especially with motorboats ... to help compensate for the prop walk ... I have seen some sailboats with the prop exiting from the side with almost a 10-15 degree offset from the boats centerline ...
A compensatory "little offset on the rudder" is extremely unusual (and essentially nonexistent) in a monohull sailing boat. You may be thinking of the Sabre 28 whose prop shaft exits to port of the centerline, but the Sabre 28 rudder itself is on the centerline. You will search in vain for an "offset rudder" on a modern monohull sailing boat, although it's possible that Phil Bolger or L. Frances designed something experimental along these lines. The Polynesians also did a little work in this area as I recall.
In the present case since the CD28 has an attached rudder, the suggestion of an intentional "rudder offset" would mean the entire hull is intentionally asymmetrical. I can state with considerable certainty after staring at my own CD28 for some 30 years that the hull is as close to symmetrical as possible. It follows that the rudder post is on center. At the same a bit of asymmetry in a production sailboat is very common as part of the standard production process.
What probably happened with the OP's boat is that the deck layup itself is not on the centerline and was either initially or subsequently fitted off center to port. How this might have happened is very unclear, and it would be interesting to learn the history of the OP's CD28 and the hull number. Having the deck set to port would bring the rudder post up through the cockpit sole a little to starboard as observed. Further evidence of this asymmetry is the OP's observation that the cap shroud chainplates are not symmetrical in way of the mast step. If more evidence is required, consider that additional ballast in the form of lead ingots has been discovered only on the starboard side.
Perhaps a glimpse at the owner's pre-purchase survey will clear the air.
Last edited by The Patriot on Dec 2nd, '10, 13:13, edited 4 times in total.
Fred of Fenix fame mentions finding a lead pig under the icebox when removing it as part of the boat's refit. So it would seem that adding some lead on the STBD side was common on the 28s, at least for some years.
I am wondering if there is any lead under my battery boxes. Similar to Fred, I completely removed the old icebox as part of some interior mods and found nothing. I'll have to look under the battery boxes. I think I will take them out if I do find them as the weight can easily be absorbed with a larger house battery (figure a decent 200Ah battery weighs 120lb or so, way more than the fuel tank located to Port).
Twenty years from now, you will be more disapointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
- Mark Twain
I will admit that my choice of words may have been a little better in the first sentence. It is not an everyday sight, but there are boats out there with slight offset. Slight being the optimum word. When it is seen it is typically by design (original or adjustment in the run), production issue, or substandard repair. Could it have been a simple decking issue with his boat, sure. The builder seldom will scrap a boat because of a small issue like that. Its just too expensive. Like you said though, it would be interesting to examine the boats immediately before and after this hull. The chances are that the rudder is in very close vertical alignment with the trailing edge of the keel. It has to be with a full keel with attached rudder or full skeg mounted rudder. Personally, I would be interested in seeing the rudder shoe removed and the shoe's attachment point at the keel. But could it have been a modification that was intentionally done. Yes, it could be. Just as with the ingots. Sometimes things just don't translate from paper to reality exactly as intended. Maybe ingots are added to one boat and tankage or something else is relocated in a later run to get the same results. Sometimes regardless of how much time and care is used during tooling a slight variation will occur with the plug used to make the mold. As the mold ages issues can arise and things will get tweaked to try and squeeze every bit of use out of it before disposal. I have personally seen three hulls pop out of the mold early. Two had to be cut up, but one was used to great frustration of the in-house engineers who had to tweak things. To the naked eye though when they were done no differences could be seen unless you knew about them beforehand, or if you started tearing the boat apart. For instance, additional glass was laid up on one side of the keel to make it fair and the attachment point of the heel strap (slightly different design than CD) was ground offset to the centerline and the rudder port was installed about a 1/4 inch off of center than normal, and since it was a wheel steered, it was not apparent at all. Because the boat also had internal ballast the additional glass work to the keel was also not discernible. Unless the ballast was removed. Then the indentation would be visible. Intentional offset is more commonly observed with an outboard rudder than an inboard style on a sailboat when it is seen. But it does occur though not commonly. As I said earlier though, and I do apologize for my choice of wording in my first post, and I do stand corrected in that respect in so much that it is not an everyday sight with a monohull. But I do stand by it occurring because I have personally seen it, and have discussed it with several knowledgeable people one of which was a NA. I wish I could remember the builder of the ones I have seen, but I just don't recall the builders names, and it was years ago when I was running a yard. I do remember one was a European builder though. Concerning an offset prop shaft exit, the Sabre was not actually the one I was thinking of. It was an old Columbia and a Slocum. What every the case may be with this particular boat though, unless the boat does not handle satisfactorily should he worry about it? Not in my humble opinion. He could better use the time and money elsewhere, and I would almost lay money on it that it was checked off on by the engineers before it left the plant. In short though based on the information that I have received when a rudder or prop offset is seen, and it is part of the design, it is normally done to help compensate for the prop or trying to make something fit. The rigging issue could also be a issue related to the decking as you pointed out, and since neither of these issues have been pointed out with this model, it is probably just a remote case. On that subject though I have seen two sixties Islanders with the keel stepped mast installed about 2 inches athwartship of the centerline and the hull looked perfectly symmetrical, and in both cases the boats handled normally. Both could have been anomalies, but since I have not seen many, it certainly stirs my curiosity.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion its interesting, and by the way your CD looks great as does your sites.
A little offset on the rudder is not unusual especially with motorboats. It is commonly done to help compensate for the prop walk primarily in forward.
I don't understand how a rudder offset from the centerline can cancel propeller walk. No matter whether you have a rudder dead on center or a steering oar over one quarter like a Viking ship, you would surely still have to to turn it the same amount to counteract the paddlewheel action of a propeller, wouldn't you?
It's not unusual to have a propeller shaft offset to compensate for prop walk, that I can understand, but I can't imagine any benefit in this respect from having the rudder placed away from center. Can someone please enlighten me? Might it have something to do with leverage?
Trim ballast is not at all uncommon on sailboats. For the most part many boats are not loaded down to the waterline for normal weekend cruising and daysailing. In a production boat the manufacturer may add trim ballast to even up the boat as it sits in the water. The needs for this can be numerous.
One of the most common is slight assymetry in the tooling(full size models from which the molds are made). No matter how careful a builder is the tooling will almost certainly vary from side to side due to temperature, humidity and general exposure to the elements while it is being built.
Sometimes the variance is minimal and sometimes it is quite noticeable. When I worked for Sam Morse building BCCs it was quite obvious that the hull mold was assymetrical. One had only to stand behind the boat and look forward along the garboards(where the lower part of the hull joins the keel) to see the difference between the port and starboard side of the boat.
I noticed this difference quite readily when installing the ballast. The lead castings for the ballast reflected the hulls assymetry.
Assymetry in F/G decks are also common. That is because the deck tooling is usually built on the first hull to come from the hull mold. Slight differences in expansion and contraction of all materials involved during the tooling phase are cast in stone(well f/g really) once the molds are laid up on the tooling.
All in all no big deal. Under identical circumstances your boat might be a better sailor on one tack or the other but I doubt you could ever tell the difference.
As for those lead pigs. I took mine out as it was just sitting in the boat with no f/g attachment at all. I kept it aboard for potential use as a cantenary weight for the anchor rode. I trimmed the boat by moving stores about as needed.
As a matter of fact I still have a chunk of that lead hiding aboard SunShine somewhere...Now let me see... where exactly did I hide that from myself this time...
Take care,
Fred
You should always have an odd number of holes in your boat!
Jonathan,
I completely gutted my boat . . . toerails removed, etc so I could see the hull-deck joint. My deck was not square on the boat because of misalignment between the deck mold and hull . . . just has Fred described. They filled the gap, on the starboard side, with polyester mash so it is no big deal . . . just a little uneven. Thus, the rudder post is about an inch off on one side of the cockpit. You can bet I measured it every which way possible to confirm it.
If you click here http://www.farreachvoyages.com/projects ... ktrim.htmland scroll to the second picture on the left (click on it to expand it so you can see it) you can clearly see the misalignment of my deck opposite the cockpit. The deck is slid about 1" to port where it is flush with the hull.
Also, when you first look at it my rudder post, from inside the boat, it looks like it is not coming up through the center of the bottom of the hull under the cockpit floor. It is centered though. After much measurement I decided the builder "sculpted" the glass around the rudder tube (on the inside of the hull) so water would drain around the post and down to the bilge and not get trapped behind and above where the rudder post exits the hull on its way to the cockpit above.
