We were in the Atlantic off of Mystic, the other side of Fisher's Island, NY this last weekend. It was blowing 20 knots sustained with puffs to 25-30, maybe 5 - 6 foot seas with moderate chop. Hanalei had all her flags flying, main-staysail-jib. Yes, she was overpowered, but still manageable and fun. Stayed that way for an hour or so, and then I tucked a single reef in the main(mainly because I got tired of it and the crew was tired of high side balasting the boat). Of course, that leveled things out and made her easier to handle. She can handle "all flags flying" in those conditions, but my question is "When should you reef, and what are the indicators that you look for to tell you that it is time to reef?"
Fun is one thing, but what is really correct? Short of carrying spars away and rippin' up sail cloth, I could probably hold all flags up to about 30 knots, not that I would, there is a point where stupidity rears it's ugly head.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Michael Stephano
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
My rule of thumb on any boat is that if I am thinking about a reef I probably should have already taken one.........
mundo@visi.net
mundo@visi.net
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Neil Gordon
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
The general rule is put a reef in as soon as you begin thinking about it. But that's because conditions can deteriorate, making it more difficult to reef later on, when you're *really* overpowered.
While the wild ride is fun, it's less comfortable and may not be any faster than the reefed ride will be. I reef at about 17 knots or so, and still max out boat speed. The boat's more efficient sailing on her feet, there's less weather helm, less braking effect from the rudder, etc.
Go out in conditions around 20 knots and see what effect reefing and various other sail combinations has on the boat. You'll probably find you can sustain boat speed with less wear and tear on the boat.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
While the wild ride is fun, it's less comfortable and may not be any faster than the reefed ride will be. I reef at about 17 knots or so, and still max out boat speed. The boat's more efficient sailing on her feet, there's less weather helm, less braking effect from the rudder, etc.
Go out in conditions around 20 knots and see what effect reefing and various other sail combinations has on the boat. You'll probably find you can sustain boat speed with less wear and tear on the boat.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
neil@nrgordon.com
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Don Carr
Ahoy Capt Dave..
Dave;
It was good to see you Saturday. I can't speak for 30's but weather and sail condition help to detrmine when to reef. If your sails are bagged,thenthey will be too full and be easily overpowered. If you are overpowered try the best you can to depower the sails (ie. crank ona little cunningham, tighten the outhaul,anything you can do to flatten the main...remember the adage.."The harder she blows,the tighter she goes.". The staysail would be the most stabilizing influence but I would assume that in the gusty and shifting winds of Saturday a bit of reduced sail area would have been good,many boats were motoring and not sailing.
By the way you probably scared those power boaters. You didn't round up did you? Heel is good. After I left you I went over for race practice and had the Nelson/Marek 41 cranked out at 7.7 knots up wind with our #2 Genoa and no main, so I guess a reef would have been a good thing. Well I'll catch you next weekend maybe.
Fair Winds.
Don Carr
carrd48@netzero.net
It was good to see you Saturday. I can't speak for 30's but weather and sail condition help to detrmine when to reef. If your sails are bagged,thenthey will be too full and be easily overpowered. If you are overpowered try the best you can to depower the sails (ie. crank ona little cunningham, tighten the outhaul,anything you can do to flatten the main...remember the adage.."The harder she blows,the tighter she goes.". The staysail would be the most stabilizing influence but I would assume that in the gusty and shifting winds of Saturday a bit of reduced sail area would have been good,many boats were motoring and not sailing.
By the way you probably scared those power boaters. You didn't round up did you? Heel is good. After I left you I went over for race practice and had the Nelson/Marek 41 cranked out at 7.7 knots up wind with our #2 Genoa and no main, so I guess a reef would have been a good thing. Well I'll catch you next weekend maybe.
Fair Winds.
Don Carr
carrd48@netzero.net
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Warren Kaplan
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
As Michael said, "If you are even thinking of reefing, you should do it." A couple of other things to remember, along with the "fatigue factor" that you already mentioned. Sailing at large heel angles is not very efficient. Boat sails better when not heeled excessively. Also, reefing sure as hell reduces the excessive weather helm that often wears out helmsmen in short order. I just got back from a week sailing in the ocean (not on a CD). Often we were sailing with a double reefed mainsail. I have to tell you that most of the time BY FAR we were not only sailing more "comfortably" with the double reef in, but actually FASTER then without the reef. I think that some people attach a "macho" thing to not reefing, or, to say it another way, feel as if someone has hung a "wimp sign" on them if they do reef. Its ridiculous!
Setsail728@aol.com
Setsail728@aol.com
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Al Levesque
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Individual thoughts probably vary all over, even by the same individual under the same conditions. I will always remember one occasion when racing late at night with a strong breeze and we decided to try reducing the main to keep the rail out of the water. Our speed jumped up a full knot and stayed there. In retrospect, we decided that it was the easing of the helm that gave us the extra speed. Since then, we have had some very enjoyable sails with deep reefs and even with the storm trysail.D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Your thoughts would be appreciated.....
Al
albertlevesque@cove.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Nah, didn't round up...just leaning over a lot.....
Don,
We were making about 7.5 knots and beating hard to weather. I sure got a lot of responses to the question in a short time! You were doing 7+ on the 41 footer with jib alone! Yeh, I guess I should have thrown a reef in her, but she was fun anyhow. We'll be at the yard next weekend, see ya then....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
We were making about 7.5 knots and beating hard to weather. I sure got a lot of responses to the question in a short time! You were doing 7+ on the 41 footer with jib alone! Yeh, I guess I should have thrown a reef in her, but she was fun anyhow. We'll be at the yard next weekend, see ya then....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Hi Dave,
A lot of good answers previous to mine, but here is my $0.02 on the matter.
We reef at 17-20 kts. continuous or 25kt gusts. I use a general rule of no heeling (in first gear) over 20 deg. If you heel more than 20 deg., you are spilling way too much air off the top twist of the sail, which slows you down, along with the other bad habits all boats pick up when overdriven. Overstressing a boat is not a good thing to do regularly.
By reefing at 20 deg. heel, you keep the boat upright so that it is moving faster, still has it's cheeks in the water to increase LWL for better top end, and minimize the weather helm generated by the too large main.
I am glad to see that you know about reefing the main first, then the Genoa. Stand the boat upright first, then reduce that genoa if the wind continues to pipe up.
DeLaMer is rigged for sailing in all conditions up to and including 55kts. We have sailed these conditions for most of a day at a time, and it is extremely wearing on the helmsperson, the boat, the ears (the wind at that speed is deafening with it's howling). Your largest enemy is fear, and lack of clear thinking. Your senses must be operating at high speed so that you can process the conditions quicker, and make decisions as to routing the boat over the next wave train or through it, to bear off or not, or to can it and go under bare poles down wind to safety etc. I would recommend that only those that have their rigging tuned (with a Loos tension gauge or similar device, not approximated by hand) should try this. It puts a lot of strain on the boat, unless the boat is prepared and sailed correctly. Mistakes happen far quicker and are more serious in the consequences dept.
Our rules for reefing are as follows:
>20 deg. heeling, or wind at 18-20 kts regularly. Reef main one step
>25-35 kts. Gradually reef your genoa as needed to develeope a slight weather helm and decent speed. Genoa fully reefed by 35 kts.
>35 kts. -45kts. Second main reef, sailing with full staysail and dbl. reefed main only. Boat will be agile, responsive and 'happy' feeling. Speed will be less than hull speed, but adequate.
>45kts. Triple reefed main (if present) and stormjib on stay as far forward as possible (we will install a second 1/4 in. stay behind the roller/furling for a storm jib that will be hanked on. I suggest that only well tuned rigs try this speed. We have experimented with several different versions of the storm jib, including a self-suporting spitfire mounted on the spinnaker gear. No good..fell off too much, losing all of the ability to beat into the wind/waves.
So hope this helps. It certainly is not the last word, not even the finest word on heavy weather management, but it is what works on DeLaMer, a CD30.
Have a great summer!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~`Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~
demers@sgi.com
A lot of good answers previous to mine, but here is my $0.02 on the matter.
We reef at 17-20 kts. continuous or 25kt gusts. I use a general rule of no heeling (in first gear) over 20 deg. If you heel more than 20 deg., you are spilling way too much air off the top twist of the sail, which slows you down, along with the other bad habits all boats pick up when overdriven. Overstressing a boat is not a good thing to do regularly.
By reefing at 20 deg. heel, you keep the boat upright so that it is moving faster, still has it's cheeks in the water to increase LWL for better top end, and minimize the weather helm generated by the too large main.
I am glad to see that you know about reefing the main first, then the Genoa. Stand the boat upright first, then reduce that genoa if the wind continues to pipe up.
DeLaMer is rigged for sailing in all conditions up to and including 55kts. We have sailed these conditions for most of a day at a time, and it is extremely wearing on the helmsperson, the boat, the ears (the wind at that speed is deafening with it's howling). Your largest enemy is fear, and lack of clear thinking. Your senses must be operating at high speed so that you can process the conditions quicker, and make decisions as to routing the boat over the next wave train or through it, to bear off or not, or to can it and go under bare poles down wind to safety etc. I would recommend that only those that have their rigging tuned (with a Loos tension gauge or similar device, not approximated by hand) should try this. It puts a lot of strain on the boat, unless the boat is prepared and sailed correctly. Mistakes happen far quicker and are more serious in the consequences dept.
Our rules for reefing are as follows:
>20 deg. heeling, or wind at 18-20 kts regularly. Reef main one step
>25-35 kts. Gradually reef your genoa as needed to develeope a slight weather helm and decent speed. Genoa fully reefed by 35 kts.
>35 kts. -45kts. Second main reef, sailing with full staysail and dbl. reefed main only. Boat will be agile, responsive and 'happy' feeling. Speed will be less than hull speed, but adequate.
>45kts. Triple reefed main (if present) and stormjib on stay as far forward as possible (we will install a second 1/4 in. stay behind the roller/furling for a storm jib that will be hanked on. I suggest that only well tuned rigs try this speed. We have experimented with several different versions of the storm jib, including a self-suporting spitfire mounted on the spinnaker gear. No good..fell off too much, losing all of the ability to beat into the wind/waves.
So hope this helps. It certainly is not the last word, not even the finest word on heavy weather management, but it is what works on DeLaMer, a CD30.
Have a great summer!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~`Sailing Lake Superior~~~~~
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: We were in the Atlantic off of Mystic, the other side of Fisher's Island, NY this last weekend. It was blowing 20 knots sustained with puffs to 25-30, maybe 5 - 6 foot seas with moderate chop. Hanalei had all her flags flying, main-staysail-jib. Yes, she was overpowered, but still manageable and fun. Stayed that way for an hour or so, and then I tucked a single reef in the main(mainly because I got tired of it and the crew was tired of high side balasting the boat). Of course, that leveled things out and made her easier to handle. She can handle "all flags flying" in those conditions, but my question is "When should you reef, and what are the indicators that you look for to tell you that it is time to reef?"
Fun is one thing, but what is really correct? Short of carrying spars away and rippin' up sail cloth, I could probably hold all flags up to about 30 knots, not that I would, there is a point where stupidity rears it's ugly head.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
demers@sgi.com
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Rich
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
... would recommend that only those that have their rigging tuned (with a Loos tension gauge or similar device, not approximated by hand) should try this ...
Nice post, Larry. I've sailed the Apostles in 40+, I assume you've spent a fair amount of time out in open water on the big lake to be talking about bare poles and 55+.
I've been looking at my rigging on my CD26, testing the tension by hand. The mast stands straight, but there's a fair amount of variation in tension from one stay to the next. I have a gauge, it came with the boat, but I haven't used it. Where can I get specs for tensioning the rig?
rpassmore42@hotmail.com
Nice post, Larry. I've sailed the Apostles in 40+, I assume you've spent a fair amount of time out in open water on the big lake to be talking about bare poles and 55+.
I've been looking at my rigging on my CD26, testing the tension by hand. The mast stands straight, but there's a fair amount of variation in tension from one stay to the next. I have a gauge, it came with the boat, but I haven't used it. Where can I get specs for tensioning the rig?
rpassmore42@hotmail.com
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Yves Feder W1UX
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Yes indeed. We were out sailing both days in the 20+ kts on our CD27 and were playing with various sail combinations..... comfortable as can be with just the unreefed main, and equally comfortable and far more efficient with just our nice new 140 O'Neill genny, both full out and partially furled (20 years ago I would have winced at the idea of using one of these, but age dilutes one's idealismNeil Gordon wrote: The general rule is put a reef in as soon as you begin thinking about it. But that's because conditions can deteriorate, making it more difficult to reef later on, when you're *really* overpowered.
While the wild ride is fun, it's less comfortable and may not be any faster than the reefed ride will be. I reef at about 17 knots or so, and still max out boat speed. The boat's more efficient sailing on her feet, there's less weather helm, less braking effect from the rudder, etc.
Go out in conditions around 20 knots and see what effect reefing and various other sail combinations has on the boat. You'll probably find you can sustain boat speed with less wear and tear on the boat.
Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
No screaming greenies over the bow with either sail. With my bride a new sailor, I didn't want to play at submarine sailing and things were really *very* comfortable, even in her opinion, slicing along at 5.5 kts through the water.
Sunday of course was a full airing-of-the-laundry day with winds 15 dying to 2 kts or less and boxing the compass.
These boats are amazing sailors under varying conditions and inspire confidence, had I been out fri and sat in the same heavy airs with an experienced friend aboard to crew, I'm sure we could have carried the main with one reef and a partially reefed genny and done 6 kts (apologies to the LWL/speed rule, same kind of slipstick engineering that states that bumblebees can't fly according to the laws of aerodynamics!
Joy and fair winds,
Yves
CD-27 #4 "Alphee"
Stonington, CT
saltwater@tinyradio.com
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Ben Thomas
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Dave, I have a cd-30 as well. I just replaced all standing rigging and after rough adjustments and some sailing. I had it tuned by a professional rigger. He has an interesting web-site briantoss.com/ anyway I have the percentages for all the wires.via tension gauge. To my surprise the boat can point a few degrees higher with less heel on all points. the fine tuning has made a big difference in overall performance. Larry DeMers is right on the money regarding reefing. I will post the rigging tensions on the board, left them posted in vessel logbook. BenD. Stump, Hanalei wrote: We were in the Atlantic off of Mystic, the other side of Fisher's Island, NY this last weekend. It was blowing 20 knots sustained with puffs to 25-30, maybe 5 - 6 foot seas with moderate chop. Hanalei had all her flags flying, main-staysail-jib. Yes, she was overpowered, but still manageable and fun. Stayed that way for an hour or so, and then I tucked a single reef in the main(mainly because I got tired of it and the crew was tired of high side balasting the boat). Of course, that leveled things out and made her easier to handle. She can handle "all flags flying" in those conditions, but my question is "When should you reef, and what are the indicators that you look for to tell you that it is time to reef?"
Fun is one thing, but what is really correct? Short of carrying spars away and rippin' up sail cloth, I could probably hold all flags up to about 30 knots, not that I would, there is a point where stupidity rears it's ugly head.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
btlandscapers@imagina.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Riggin' figures...much appreciated...
Ben,
I would be very interested in seeing the tension figures for the CD-30. Particularly with what happened when the yard stepped the mast this year. I was watching the young gentleman playing with the lower and upper stays on the starboard side of Hanalei, he seemed to be doing a lot of adjustment. I walked up to him and said "Is there a problem?". Response "I can't seem to get the bend out of the mast!"
That did it! I took one look up the sail track, saw an "S" bend at the lowers, and asked the rigger to leave the vessel! He didn't have a clue that what he was doing was wrong! Just keep tightening and it will go away! Lucky he didn't drive the mast through the step!
Anyhow, it is now set pretty good by feel and by eye(mine), no hook or falling off at the truck when working hard to weather. But, I still would like to see the guage numbers, maybe I'll even invest in a guage!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
I would be very interested in seeing the tension figures for the CD-30. Particularly with what happened when the yard stepped the mast this year. I was watching the young gentleman playing with the lower and upper stays on the starboard side of Hanalei, he seemed to be doing a lot of adjustment. I walked up to him and said "Is there a problem?". Response "I can't seem to get the bend out of the mast!"
That did it! I took one look up the sail track, saw an "S" bend at the lowers, and asked the rigger to leave the vessel! He didn't have a clue that what he was doing was wrong! Just keep tightening and it will go away! Lucky he didn't drive the mast through the step!
Anyhow, it is now set pretty good by feel and by eye(mine), no hook or falling off at the truck when working hard to weather. But, I still would like to see the guage numbers, maybe I'll even invest in a guage!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Don Carr
Re: What rigging shop?
Dave;
What rigger did you use? You can email me or post here. I am going to utilize Mystic Rigging for the installation of Single line reefing.
Don Carr
carrd48@netzero.net
What rigger did you use? You can email me or post here. I am going to utilize Mystic Rigging for the installation of Single line reefing.
Don Carr
carrd48@netzero.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD-30's....When do you put a reef in?
Hi Rich,
Hey great! You know the area then. We sail here on an average of about 30 weekends a year, plus a month of vacation time. The highest winds I have experienced on the lake were at Isle Royale, where we were trying to find cover from a gale in Siskiwit Bay. We ran under bare poles, and did 4-5 kts! Talk about a feeling of running out of runway! As we approached the mid point of Sisskiwit Bay, and could see the end coming at us, we were looking for a place to pull off and seek shelter, and the choices were getting fewer and fewer! Finally we did locate a small bay on the north side of Sissikiwit bay, pulled in and anchored in total relief.
As for your tensioning, use the guide on the back of the Loos gauge for the wire size that you have to tension. Aim for the middle of the range, to slightly less than the middle. As for the proper tension to set, I have never seen any figures on that, but have gone by the empirical method of experimentation. Set it, work it, watch it. If the stay flops around on the lee side of the boat while beating, you have it too loose. Retune a bit tighter yet. It should be tension free on the lee side, but not flopping around.
It is relatively important that opposing forces be equal on the mast while it is at rest, so the trick is to center the mast first, using the uppers only (loosen the lowers for this adj.). Once you are satisfied with the centering, then do your lowers, starting with the aft lowers, putting exactly the same tension on each side, then adjusting that tension equally (ie: 1 turn looser on the port stay, means one turn tighter on the starbd. stay, in order to maintain the mast centering. Sight up your sail track to determine which way the S-turn is going, and use the lowers to tune this out). A final check with the tension gauge is needed to assure that the opposing tension is equal, after all the adjustments are completed.
Sometime in the past year or so, I wrote a long and detailed Tuning Procedure for cutter rigs, but it could be used by sloops rigs also. The article should be available in the search utility, but I have not looked for it yet.
Write if I can be of further help.
Cheers All!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Sailing Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
Hey great! You know the area then. We sail here on an average of about 30 weekends a year, plus a month of vacation time. The highest winds I have experienced on the lake were at Isle Royale, where we were trying to find cover from a gale in Siskiwit Bay. We ran under bare poles, and did 4-5 kts! Talk about a feeling of running out of runway! As we approached the mid point of Sisskiwit Bay, and could see the end coming at us, we were looking for a place to pull off and seek shelter, and the choices were getting fewer and fewer! Finally we did locate a small bay on the north side of Sissikiwit bay, pulled in and anchored in total relief.
As for your tensioning, use the guide on the back of the Loos gauge for the wire size that you have to tension. Aim for the middle of the range, to slightly less than the middle. As for the proper tension to set, I have never seen any figures on that, but have gone by the empirical method of experimentation. Set it, work it, watch it. If the stay flops around on the lee side of the boat while beating, you have it too loose. Retune a bit tighter yet. It should be tension free on the lee side, but not flopping around.
It is relatively important that opposing forces be equal on the mast while it is at rest, so the trick is to center the mast first, using the uppers only (loosen the lowers for this adj.). Once you are satisfied with the centering, then do your lowers, starting with the aft lowers, putting exactly the same tension on each side, then adjusting that tension equally (ie: 1 turn looser on the port stay, means one turn tighter on the starbd. stay, in order to maintain the mast centering. Sight up your sail track to determine which way the S-turn is going, and use the lowers to tune this out). A final check with the tension gauge is needed to assure that the opposing tension is equal, after all the adjustments are completed.
Sometime in the past year or so, I wrote a long and detailed Tuning Procedure for cutter rigs, but it could be used by sloops rigs also. The article should be available in the search utility, but I have not looked for it yet.
Write if I can be of further help.
Cheers All!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Sailing Lake Superior
Rich wrote: ... would recommend that only those that have their rigging tuned (with a Loos tension gauge or similar device, not approximated by hand) should try this ...
Nice post, Larry. I've sailed the Apostles in 40+, I assume you've spent a fair amount of time out in open water on the big lake to be talking about bare poles and 55+.
I've been looking at my rigging on my CD26, testing the tension by hand. The mast stands straight, but there's a fair amount of variation in tension from one stay to the next. I have a gauge, it came with the boat, but I haven't used it. Where can I get specs for tensioning the rig?
demers@sgi.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Not a shop....
Don,
It was one of the "riggers" that works for Noank Shipyard. Not a professional rigger, which is exactly the point!
Single line reefing is pretty easy to do, I would think with the proper time, you could do that yourself...
D. Stump, Hanalei
It was one of the "riggers" that works for Noank Shipyard. Not a professional rigger, which is exactly the point!
Single line reefing is pretty easy to do, I would think with the proper time, you could do that yourself...
D. Stump, Hanalei