Asymm: Inside or Outside jibe?

[Dean Abramson]

To those who use asymms:

Do you do "inside" or "outside" jibes? I would be interested to hear people's inputs on the pros and cons of each.

My limited experience with ours has been with the inside jibe. But after a mega-tangle yesterday, I am thinking that the outside move might be easier than trying to pull the chute's clew through the space between the chute and the headstay. But I read that the downside of the outside jibe is that there is more likelihood of getting the sheets in the water ahead of the boat, and then running over them.

My sense is that the inside move has more advocates than the outside? Yes? No?

Also, I have seen quite a bit on this board about raising and lowering the chute, generally with a snuffer (we have one), but not so much about jibing. I am wondering how many folks douse the sail, the re-set on the new course, as opposed to actually jibing the chute. (There was a point yesterday when this idea suddenly held a lot of appeal!)

Dean

[Steve Laume]

I have a drifter, not an asymmetrical spinnaker but the concepts are the same. There is no sock on this sail so dousing to jibe is not a good option.

I don't jibe the sail that often and many times I do not even attach a lazy sheet, if I know I will be on one tack for the entire time. Most of the time I am alone or short handed. I always do an outside jibe as it is pretty simple and fool proof.

I have never had a problem with the sheets being run over. Keeping some tension on both sheets should prevent this.

I can't imagine trying to tack the thing inside. It seems like the sail would always try to hold on to some of it's power and then there are all sorts of potential sail rippers waiting to go to work. It would also seem like you would need one person on the bow to help feed the sil through while someone else handled the sheets. That would require one more person than I have on the boat at times.

Let it fly and enjoy the sight. The noise is not to pleasant though, Steve.

[kerlandsen]

I prefer the outside. My sheets are not overly long, so only slightly less risk of running them over. However, if you do run them over, it must be re-lead, it will not ever clear itself.

The most important thing about a jibe with an asym is easing the old active sheet until the clew has reached a point forward of the bow, then you can pull on the new sheet, which will collapse the sail. The old sheet must be able to run free, even to the point where you actually pull it out of the turning block so the sail can go free to the new side.

I busted my homemake bowsprit yesterday holding a steady 7kts with peak at 7.4. The sail luffed and then filled again, whammo, busted bowsprit. A new one is already under construction in my garage. Glad to have it break instead of something else. We should had the sail down 30 minutes sooner, oh well.

Kyle

[seadog6532]

We have not had our chute up on Arianna yet, maybe next weekend... But the best way I have found is with a snuffer sock on the sail with only one sheet so you don't have the lazy sheet pulling on the sail in light wind. Dowse the sail with the snuffer and walk the sheet around outside the head stay and through the block to the winch and then pull up the snuffer. I did it single handed all the time on my last boat with no trouble.

[river-rat]

Have used both inside and outside jibes with asymmetrical and symmetrical without pole.

The inside works best with a jib halyard sheave (below the forestay) and not easing the old sheet too much. I have a "spare" jib halyard because my jib furler has an integral halyard. Good control over both the old and new sheets is important to avoid a wrap. I suspect that problems could develop if the spinnaker has a very big foot.

The outside jibe without a pole has worked well with a conventional spinnaker halyard sheave above the forestay . Easing the old sheet so much that the chute is almost streaming straight out downwind from the boat before trimming the new sheet works OK. Running over the sheets not a problem if there is enough wind.

In both cases the spinnaker is tacked to a fitting that slides over the furled jib. Note that a symmetrical flies just fine without a pole if the mainsail is not hoisted.

[Andy Denmark]

I cannot begin to contemplate the mess an "inside (the headstay) jibe" could bring. On a cutter rig even moreso.

Then, I've never tried an "inside jibe" as I deem it one of those things that's flawed at the concept level.

I've always taught my racing crews a basic concept when jibing chutes (sym or asym) that being to drive the boat under the sail and not try to horse the sail around in front of the boat. This makes the process so much easier but it takes some concentration from the helmsman. A minor wiggle in course to do this is usually insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

As for the sheets geting in the water, this is merely a matter of paying attention.

FWIW
________
VOLCANO DIGITAL

[Mike Wainfeld]

One tip (from this board) that I've found to be very helpful is to have the main trimmed all the way to center during the jibe as you blow the sheet. This will allow the wind from the aft to blow the clew of the spinnaker all the way forward. If the main is out, it will tend to blanket the spinnaker, and the clew will not go all the way forward.
Also helpful are light sheets. The ideal spinnaker sheets float, and are totally weightless, with a good hand. As these are not available, try to get the closest thing.
Good Luck-I singlehand my (small) asymmetrical and have occasionally been known to execute a successful jibe!
Mike

[Dean Abramson]

Andy,

I am not talking about inside (abaft) the headstay.

"Inside" in this case means having the lazy sheet abaft the tack line. (Between the tack line and the headstay.) So you are pulling the sail thru a gap between the chute's luff and the boat's headstay.

"Outside" means the lazy sheet is run forward of the tack line, and the clew/sail is pulled around forward of the luff and tack line.

Please see http://www.fxsails.com/spinnarticle2.php by a sail designer who explains both ways, but prefers the inside method. (My impression has been that racing crews prefer the inside method.)

Either way, this all happens forward of the headstay. I have enough trouble in light winds getting my yankee to tack through the gap ahead of the staysail, so I am surely not going to try to jibe a spinnaker through there!

Dean

[Dean Abramson]

Mike,

Thanks. Do you go the inside or outside route?

I'm kinda taking a survey of cruisers here.

Dean

[Mike Wainfeld]

nm

[wstringer]

We do not have a lot of experience but have been playing with the asymmetrical a few times this summer - always in winds under 8 kts and very calm water. So far, inside (between the tack line and the headstay) has been easier. Procedure (with a crew of 3, don't know how well this will work with just 2):

From a broad reach, we head downwind, blanketing the asym. Pull the clew to just aft of the headstay. Keep tension of both sheets. Jibe the main, then pull the clew thru onto the new tack. Head up to the new broad reach.

The first time we used the asym this year I accidentally led the sheets this way, but it has turned out to be fairly straight forward. Tried jibing outside once and wound up with bottom paint on the sheets. I think I would want polypro sheets if I were planning to use the outside method with a shorthand crew.

We secure the tack line to the sail with a trigger shackle and lead the trigger line back to the mast.If we ever get into too much trouble we should be able to pop the tack line remotely and sock the sail in the lee of the main.

[Andy Denmark]

"Inside" may work for some. I've never tried it. Still flawed at the concept level, IMHO. Here's why -- way out front there's nothing to get wrapped around. Spinnakers of all types are constantly looking for something to tangle themselves in or around -- even themselves. Out front they fly free and stay clear of everything.

"Pulling the sail around?" I mentioned gently turning the boat under the chute instead of trying to drag it to where you want it. There's no force involved with this method, just swapping sides and taking up slack while smoothly making a shallow turn -- an effortless maneuver timed around jibing the main over.

As for sheets, polypro is way too stretchy for sheets of any kind. I won't have it on my boats except for dinghy painter -- old and quirky, I guess, but any line that won't hold a knot is useless to me. As for sheets getting under the boat I've never had that problem even single handed.

I will try the "inside" method sometime and see how it works.
________
General motors south africa

[Mike Wainfeld]

Andy-Great description of driving the boat under the spinnaker-this I think is the real key to the jibe. I'm using Sta-Set X Lite 5/16 for sheets. Low stretch, lightweight, bouyant. They are Spectra parallel core with a polypropylene cover. Not sure if that rope is still available.

[Troy Scott]

Mark and Anne of Arianna have the most foolproof method. It's certainly not a racing method...., but it's relaxed, safe, simple, predictable.....