Replacement thru hull/seacock in typhoon

[Sea Hunt]

Winthrop:

I have a hand bilge pump. I hardly ever use it because all I ever get in the bilge is moisture. When it rains really heavy for a long time then I get about 1" near the aft end in the bilge. I use a sponge to get this out and then the bilge is again bone dry.

The two (2) Groco seacocks I have now are pretty much in line with the hoses with a very slight bend in the hose to connect to the scupper drain.

Name of sailboat: S/V Tadpole

My name: Robert

Moniker: Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"

When I purchased S/V Tadpole in March/April 2008, I was trying to think of a name. The seller, now a good friend, suggested "Tadpole". Made sense since in terms of sailing skills and abilities I was (and remain) a true "tadpole".

[MoJac]

After many many hours of thinking about, trying and spending money, to install seacocks into MoJac

(a 1979 CD25 - I know the discussion started with a Ty but I believe the same issues arise with the CD25)

I have finally settled on the same exact set up as the "picture above". Thru hull, double s.s. hose clamps, the same white hose, another set of double s.s. hose clamps all connected to the deck drain.

I have finally accepted the above set up as the best set up for our boat as we use it, for the following reasons.

1. On the CD25 I could not get the seacock, hose adapter and pipe to fit between the thru hull and deck drain. I have seen a picture on this site of someone who has done it (but with only one hose clamp at each end of the pipe), but for the life of me I can not figure out how they got it all together.

2. So next step was to add a 90 degree hose adapter onto the seacock, and "cross" the pipes. The result was not to my satisfaction. I continually had water in the cockpit and even when the boat was pulled for the season water remained in the "crossed" hoses. Which in the northern climates is never a good thing and sure enough after the first winter water froze and pipe split.

3. So finally I decided to go with the very simple system of the straight down hose with double clamps at each end.

My final results were based on the following:

- 95% of the time (I'm sad to say) the boats stays at the mooring with nobody on her, so if seacocks or pipe were to fail when nobody is on the boat (keep in mind cockpit drain seacocks must stay open when your away from the boat) the best quality and installation seacock would be of no help.

- second, the straight down pipe installation had completely solved my problem of water in the cockpit. It has also solved the problem with the crossed pipes "trapping" any water and thus I no longer have a problem with water freezing.

-I am a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. method on our boat as much as possible.

In closing and venting, as much as we all love our Cape Dories and I always get many complements on her. I have been on many many small sailboats that have solved this problem by simply pitching the cockpit deck aft and draining water above the water line. I have long felt that this is a major design flaw in the Cape Dories. I hate to have holes in my boat below the water line that don't really need to be there.

And don't get me started on how to deal with the ground tackle without a proper anchor pulpit!!! But that is for another thread.

Good thread!!!

Greg

[winthrop fisher]

hey Robert it sounds like everything is fine then.

and Greg is right do not use an elbow,
winthrop

[marv brinn]

I would not have any hoses connected to the hull without a seacock.there are times when you leave the boat for a while that you want to have the hoses closed with a valve.
do not pick a home depot type you need a spartan or other marine type or you are asking for trouble...the plastic ones are used alot but if you can afford the bronze ones do it...they last for ever..
I had the experience of rebuilding my seacock while the boat was in the water!!I plugged it with noodle foam material from the water side and repaired the seacock!

[Kevin Kaldenbach]

If you are replacing your seacocks on a Typhoon I would suggest going a size bigger.

[ceilidh]

have enjoyed all of the responses to my initial question; all provide good "food" for thought. My inclination now is to go with the marelon (sp??) in line ball valve, not the seacock model. I was out on the boat today trying to figure out a good way to redrill the thru hull to larger diameter, say 1" or 1.25". I think I have that bit figured out; then it dawned on me that the cockpit scupper is only .75" so that would have to be changed (redrilled??) as well. Any experience out there in changing out cockpit scuppers??? hank

[Markst95]

Hank- I didn't change the cockpit scupper drains, it would have required rebuilding them bigger. On my boat the hose connectors for the scuppers allowed me to slide the larger hose up higher and get a good seal. I just used a larger hose and 1 1/4" thru hulls. Even though the scuppers are the same size the extra size on the bottom really does help them drain faster.


By the way remember this thread on Spartan Maintenance?


http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic ... an+seacock

I'll stick with my hoses thank you very much!

[Maine Sail]

These boats were built a long time ago. They would not met today's ABYC Standards.

If CD/Robinhood were building Typhoons today they would need seacocks to meet the ABYC H-27 standard.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

27.5.1 All piping, tubing, or hose lines penetrating the hull below the maximum heeled waterline, shall be equipped with a seacock to stop the admission of water in the event of failure of pipes, tubing, or hose.[/i]

[winthrop fisher]

hey ever one,

just to let some of you know, what you get at Ace hardware is the same thing you get in the marine stores in bronze not nylon...

and yes you can go up to 11/2" in hose, but you do not need to, its a small boat, just stay with 3/4", thats all you need...

not everything comes from marine stores and if you are trying to keep the price down...

sum brands are very high price and you can find the same thing made by someone else for half the price or more, and it does not mean cheap products.

i all so help people save allot of money, just my two cents worth...
winthrop

[Jim Davis]

Yes these stores are a great place to shop for boating supplies.

That said, when buying things for under water use be careful. There are a lot of valves sold to plumbers and handymen that are brass and may have steel parts. For marine use you need valves made for use in salt water which means real bronze or stainless.

Avoid the Chinese knock offs like you would the plague.

[winthrop fisher]

hi Jim...

well before you judge me maybe you should see my history,

i have been in the marine business sense the 1978,

sorry i have been out of the coast guard for the last 13 years in texas.

but i am state water patrol for the state of missouri right now.

i manage boat stores for a living, and i have almost done all the hands on work on board.

and by the time i was 10 years old i cross the atlantic ocean with my family for the first time in a 41 footer, not counting the other six times plus.

i also teach boating safety classes on the side.

thats just a little history on my side.

so hows your boating experience

like i said i help people safe MONEY,
thats all and you can find some supplies in ace hardware...

like it or not,

the boat business is slowing down and people are looking for cheaper prices, not cheaper products.

thats just the way it is...
winthrop

[winthrop fisher]

goto Sea Dog line. com marine products

has been around sense the 1930 and save money .

[marv brinn]

dont buy cheap when doing brake jobs ,brain surgery or valves..look at it this way the 200 dollar valve protects ( you fill in the blank)
ALSO a 1 1/2 " nipple on a valve will not accept 1 1/2 hose..some times they need to be heated and softened up to fit on the nipple..

[Maine Sail]

hi Jim...

well before you judge me maybe you should see my history,

i have been in the marine business sense the 1978,

sorry i have been out of the coast guard for the last 13 years in texas.

but i am state water patrol for the state of missouri right now.

i manage boat stores for a living, and i have almost done all the hands on work on board.

and by the time i was 10 years old i cross the atlantic ocean with my family for the first time in a 41 footer, not counting the other six times plus.

i also teach boating safety classes on the side.

thats just a little history on my side.

so hows your boating experience

like i said i help people safe MONEY,
thats all and you can find some supplies in ace hardware...

like it or not,

the boat business is slowing down and people are looking for cheaper prices, not cheaper products.

thats just the way it is...
winthrop

Please show me a UL marine rated 85-5-5-5 bronze ball valve or 85-5-5-5 bronze fitting from ACE Hardware and I'll buy it. Yellow brass, PVC or nylon fittings should not be used below the waterline. Marelon or UL marine rated bronze are the proper tools for the job. Have yet to see 85-5-5-5 bronze at an ACE hardware, but there is always a first..

This is a photo of a one year old YELLOW BRASS Home Depot ball valve. When I asked this seasoned boating veteran why he used a ball valve from Home Depot he said; "It was only in a pinch while coming up the ICW but after it was installed I forgot to replace it with bronze one".

This Home Depot valve was in use for about 8 months, of total in water time, and the ball, inside the valve, was completely GONE, as in NOT THERE, GONZO, CORRODED AWAY! This valve was literally weeks away from catastrophic failure of the boat sinking type..

Please use the proper valves & fittings for below water application.

A penny saved almost sunk this boat... BTW the 85-5-5-5 through hull this valve was connected to was still in perfect condition and was over 29 years old.



My experience with valves includes being a manufacturers rep for two valve manufacturers... The stuff you buy at a hardware store or home center is NOT the same as a UL Marine rated product unless it says UL Marine Rated.

This is what the "Marine" UL logo will look like.

[Maine Sail]

Sorry almost forgot an important one.

This yellow brass "home center / hardware store" hose barb DID sink this boat. It was connected to an bronze thru-hull, valve and elbow. The other parts were completely fine the yellow brass catastrophically failed.



There ARE many things you CAN buy at ACE hardware but below waterline fittings should not be in that grouping. UNLESS you can 100% verify metallurgic make up and confirm industry testing for below water application.. A Marine UL stamp is the easiest way to verify this has been done..



ABYC Requirements:

27.5.4 Seacocks shall be designed and constructed to meet ANSI/UL 1121, Marine Through-Hull Fittings
and Sea-Valves.

27.5.5 Thru-hull fittings shall be designed and constructed to meet ANSI/UL 1121, Marine Through-Hull
Fittings and Sea-Valves.

27.6.1 A seacock shall be securely mounted so that the assembly will withstand a 500 pound (227 Kg)
static force applied for 30 seconds to the inboard end of the assembly, without the assembly failing to stop
the ingress of water.

27.6.1.3 Threads used in seacock installations shall be compatible (eg. NPT to NPT, NPS to NPS).

27.6.1 All materials shall be galvanically compatible and resist degradation by salt water, petroleum products. UV light, ozone, cleaning compounds likely to be encountered, marine growth, and the effects of aging.

27.6.2 Copper-based alloys shall meet the requirements of the 10 day Moist Ammonia Air Stress Cracking Test in UL 1185.

27.6.3 All plastic fitting shall meet the following minimum physical properties:

.1 a minimum tensile strengths greater than 10,900 psi (75mPa), when tested to ASTM D638; and

.2 a flexural modulus greater than 500,000 psi (3,480 mPa), when tested to ASTM D790; and

.3 shall contain ultraviolet light inhibitors.