Scary night

[Dean Abramson]

Mainesail,

What an incredible drag. I am very sorry to hear about that. That is a very expensive bit of random bad luck.

You might want to start another thread and describe what all you found. I would be curious. I am particularly interested in whether you found any burn damage to non-electrical parts of the boat. And your sense, having seen the damage, how you think that crew would have fared, had you been aboard. (I am glad you were not!)

I think more folks might learn from you in a separate thread, as some readers are probably losing interest in Maplegate by now.

Best of luck with the insurance company and repairs.

Dean

[Dean Abramson]

After all of this feedback, I think I will measure for a bigger Bruce. I even know someone who might sell me a used one.

The problem is that both my chain stopper and my securing-bracket-with-pin (whatever you call that) are positioned based on the length of the shank of the current anchor. I just repositioned them to line up with my newly-moved windlass. The bigger anchor could be a can of worms to accommodate.

But I think my buddy will lend me his for testing purposes. There have been times when I was forced to anchor in spots that are around 40 ft. at high tide. That would mean all 40 feet of chain plus a 33 lb. anchor being suspended at one time, plus the extra oomph needed to free the anchor. Hurts my back just thinking about it. But using the windlass in its new position might make this doable. (Although it is already a lot of work.) I'd be adding 10 lbs. of weight, what does that translate into in salt water? About 8 lbs.?

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input!

Dean

[Mike]

Dean for what it is worth I also think your 22#Bruce is a bit light. I had the same anchor on my CD 27. Not to start any anchor wars but should you decide to go bigger be advised that the new cast Bruce anchor sold by Lewmar is a poor imitation of the old forged Bruce. When Lewmar came out with their low cost cast version they stopped making the forged original in sizes that recreational sailors would buy.If you can find a larger used forged one jump on it.

I use a spade and swear by it but there are many fine brands out there. Pick one size up from what the manufacturer recommends. It is money well spent

[Duncan]

After all of this feedback, I think I will measure for a bigger Bruce.

Dean, I think you are fine with the setup you have. I have been using the next size down (7.5 kg, 16.5 lbs) for 6 years now and have never dragged. This includes storms at Block Island (notorious for poor holding), and a 60 knot microburst at Dutch Harbour, RI.

There is a Bruce anchor sizing guide here (link), which confirms that a 22 lb Bruce is a conservative choice for your boat.

I think maybe people get confused because CQRs have to be very heavy to work properly, but Bruce and many other types of anchors don't need to be nearly so heavy.

[MarcMcCarron]

when a storm is approaching you should adjust to take a 10:1
scope. Expect the unexpected. Imagine the difference if you
start to drag......

[Maine Sail]

After all of this feedback, I think I will measure for a bigger Bruce. I even know someone who might sell me a used one.

The problem is that both my chain stopper and my securing-bracket-with-pin (whatever you call that) are positioned based on the length of the shank of the current anchor. I just repositioned them to line up with my newly-moved windlass. The bigger anchor could be a can of worms to accommodate.

But I think my buddy will lend me his for testing purposes. There have been times when I was forced to anchor in spots that are around 40 ft. at high tide. That would mean all 40 feet of chain plus a 33 lb. anchor being suspended at one time, plus the extra oomph needed to free the anchor. Hurts my back just thinking about it. But using the windlass in its new position might make this doable. (Although it is already a lot of work.) I'd be adding 10 lbs. of weight, what does that translate into in salt water? About 8 lbs.?

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input!

Dean

Dean,

I have a genuine Bruce 33 and a Manson Supreme 25. I will loan you either for the summer but I would steer you towards the Manson 25. You will be amazed.... Let me know if you want to borrow one of them, they do me no good sitting in my barn...

[Michael Heintz]

What a GREAT board. You not only have people who are hip enough to admit their fears and misgivings so that we can all learn.

Then you have a civilized AND very informative discussion on the subject.

Every opinion is a good one and a valid one from sailors who are VERY experienced.

AND THEN you have a member offer to lend a piece of equipment to help out.

IT JUST DOESN'T GET BETTER THAN THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!

[mahalocd36]

Good for you Dean on posting your story. I give a lot of credit to people willing to do that and get other peoples "advice".

We never posted our horrible experience with TS Bill (or was it Danny?, 2 went through in one week, I guess it was the second).
2 reasons - we monday-morning quartebacked that thing to death for the rest of our vacation and didn't really need to hear what we did wrong, we knew.
Also didn't feel like telling the story again and reliving it.

So here's my advice
One thing you should know since your depth sounder isn't working is that the chart soundings, for harbors in Maine anyways, aren't always accurate. For one thing, the number is a (theoretcial) minimum depth, and not the actual depth where you set the anchor (accounting for tide of course). For instance we've been sitting on top of the number '10' on a chart and the depth was really 14 say (taking the actual depth and subracting out the current tide height taken from GPS) I'm sure somewhere nearby it might have been 10 but not there. And, we've also found where the depth is less than charted due to silting or whatever (I don't know when the last time soundings were done in Maine but I assume not too recently).

So, if you are in an iffy situation again (storms predicted or whatever) you might want to take a leadline and see what the actual depth is where you dropped it. Just to get the scope right. It's a big difference between 10 and 14' feet when figuring scope...

[Len]

Dean,
First let me say I watched the storm from the comfort of an armchair at home and it was one of the "nicest" electrical storms I have seen in Maine. (Obviously not so "nice " when your "In it" and certainly not so "nice" when your struck by it.

As far as your actions during that episode, I feel that you did what most of us (including myself )would have done in similar situations. I never put out that much scope (7-10) in a nicely protected cove like maple juice.I am very happy with my BRUCE and would use it always if it were on my all chain rode.(Someday I plan on switching it with my CQR which I often find to be a pain .)

I have been in really heavy winds. I have been in terrific electrical storms. I have been under "scoped" at anchor. But I can't recall being in a situation with all three at once (or I may have repressed such scary thoughts.) What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Feel those muscles !!! You'll need them to lift that heavier anchor!

Len

[MarcMcCarron]

Following the basics is always a good idea. When we start bending the rules .... it begets bending the rules in other areas of safety as well.
Anchorages are only as well protected as the weather permits.
I spent two full days at anchor in steady 35knot gusting above
50 knot winds. The 50+ knot gusts happened four or five times an hour.
My CQR with 50feet of chain attached to rope held for the duration.
I was in a very protected anchorage about 150feet from shore.
If my anchor dragged, I would have been blown hard aground on the
opposite shore less than a thousand yards away, at the mouth of the
pungo canal (NC). There was no room for error, and my 10:1 scope
gave me extra assurance that my fundamentals were correct.
There is always time to set proper scope- your life may depend on it.

[rtbates]

Glad to hear all turned out Ok.

And thanks for the story as I now feel really confortable using that exact same anchor with 40' of chain for our 25D.

If I were you I'd go up a size or two...

[Dean Abramson]

people who are hip enough to admit their fears and misgivings so that we can all learn

Thanks, Michael. I don't get called hip everyday. I appreciate that. And, yes, this Board is absolutely THE BEST.

I have been in really heavy winds. I have been in terrific electrical storms. I have been under "scoped" at anchor. But I can't recall being in a situation with all three at once

Lenny, thanks for putting it that way. Now I feel like I won the Trifecta. I am going to draft you as my shipboard shrink. (And my new foredeck grunt if I buy the heavier anchor.)

I give a lot of credit to people willing to do that and get other peoples "advice".

Thanks, Melissa. I don't care if folks out there think I am not a genius or a braveheart. I really value having all of the feedback to weigh. Folks can share whatever they are comfortable with. And you and Rich know that my best boat story remains under wraps! BTW: I'm planning to re-install and test the depthsounder this week.

thanks for the story as I now feel really confortable using that exact same anchor with 40' of chain for our 25D.

Randy, I really think you can sleep at night.

Dean, I think you are fine with the setup you have. I have been using the next size down (7.5 kg, 16.5 lbs) for 6 years now and have never dragged. This includes storms at Block Island (notorious for poor holding), and a 60 knot microburst at Dutch Harbour, RI. There is a Bruce anchor sizing guide here (link), which confirms that a 22 lb Bruce is a conservative choice for your boat.

THANKS DUNCAN!!! It's demoralizing when a guy keeps hearing that his tool is too small. Seriously, I do think that if anything, the manufacturers' recommendations are already conservative. Because 1) they don't want the anchor to get a bad name and risk folks' lives, and 2) why in heavens name would they want you to buy a LESS expensive anchor? For this reason, I think when it is all said and done, I probably will keep what I have. This anchor held even though it was set 180 degrees counter to where the wind came from; and at the time of the big blow, the scope may has been as little as 4:1.

But I am keeping my mind open.

Next time, I will figure that the thunderstorm's wind will most likely come from the same quadrant as the storm, and re-set the anchor facing that way. I'll let out my additional scope gradually as the tide rises, instead of planning to wait until the last minute. And if the dung really hits the fan, I will probably motor in forward again.

I was too engrossed in my novel. Personally, I'm blaming Richard Russo.

Thanks, all. The experience and the discussion has taught me a lot.

Dean

[Joe CD MS 300]

[quote=
THANKS DUNCAN!!! It's demoralizing when a guy keeps hearing that his tool is too small. Seriously, I do think that if anything, the manufacturers' recommendations are already conservative. Because 1) they don't want the anchor to get a bad name and risk folks' lives, and 2) why in heavens name would they want you to buy a LESS expensive anchor? For this reason, I think when it is all said and done, I probably will keep what I have. This anchor held even though it was set 180 degrees counter to where the wind came from; and at the time of the big blow, the scope may has been as little as 4:1.

Dean

[/quote]

I'm not sure that this is a given (manufacture's recommendations being conservative). For what ever reason I've seen many comments on this and other boards indicating that the recommended sizes are not conservative enough. I actually could not find an anchor sizing chart on the Lewmar website for any of their anchors which is strange.

Joe

[bottomscraper]

I'm thinking it's a bit much for where we sail but...

http://setsail.com/how-big-should-your- ... #more-5250

I'm guessing Steve also recommends at least one backup windlass

[John Vigor]

Dean, you should be wary of generalized suggestions from anchor manufacturers about the size of anchor you need. Seventy percent or more of many types of anchors are sold to inland fishermen for use with small open boats on lakes. Understandably, manufacturers' recommendations are tailored to this market, not the market constituting 2 percent of their customers who own offshore boats.
Furthermore, no matter what claims are made for lightweight anchors as regards pure holding power once they're set -- and they are probably correct -- it's weight, sheer weight, that helps get an anchor set in the first place.
You can bury an anchor nicely by backing up under power when you first come into an anchorage, but what happens in the middle of the night when the wind begins to blow strongly from the opposite direction? The anchor pops out and has to reset itself as best it can. The heavier it is, the quicker it will will break through the weed and surface crust.
A pointy anchor like a CQR or a Rocna is good at penetrating the seabed on its own and digging down, but a "blunter" anchor like the Bruce has more trouble and needs more weight. In sand or mud, the Bruce has a wonderful reputation for "grabbing" again very quickly, but it may not be so fast to set if there is anything but a perfect seabed below -- then, it's sheer weight that helps it break through grass and debris and get settled.
Lacking a good heavy storm anchor, you would gain more peace oif mind by using a second anchor in front of your Bruce. You'll notice the Bruce has a hole in the crown where you can shackle on a 10-foot chain to a forward anchor. Two anchors in line like this give a lot of added protection.
Alternatively, you can set a separate second anchor and rode to one side or the other of the first,so that the boat lies back to a "V" of two anchor rodes. You can set this second anchor from the boat, or from a dinghy, after you have anchored with one pick in settled weather and when the weather begins to look troublesome. To anchor with two anchors in tandem you have to have planned it in advance, of course.
In my opinion a 22-pound Bruce is suitable for a CD27. I think it's too small for your boat. If I were you I'd go up a size.

Cheers,

John V.