radar info

[Tom Robinson]

I'm in the process of buying a radar system for my CD30. I have gone as far as ordering an entry level JRC system with 16 mile range. But several people have suggested that I cancel the order and get the more expensive Faruno instead. They are Faruno owners and I can appreciate thier loyalty but $500 is still a good savings if the JRC performs. Anyone have anything to say about either unit?
Thanks in advance!

Tom Robinson
CD30 Wild Rover



blockri@aol.com

[Steve Alarcon]

Tom,

I have a Raytheon 16NM on my CD30. What I found was the quality of image on the graphics display, width of sweep, hight of sweep, and power output to be the differentiating issues. One thing I didn't count on was that when trying to get the maximum range the targets returned the minimal painting. I figured that 16 NM would paint as well as 4 NM. Not so!

My sense is that the power is attenuated on the return path. Thus, if you want to go to greater distances, you might want to get a 24NM radar. Seems like the break over point is at about 8NM. In my area, tankers, freighters and ferrys come shooting down Puget Sound at up to 35 Kts (the ferry goes that fast; it's jet powered catamaran). In the fog, I'd rather have the extra distance.

Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle



alarcon3@prodigy.net

[Craig Urquhart]

Tom,
I chose the low end Furuno 1.5KW unit (Model 1621 I believe) with the LCD display because it got good marks from Practical Sailor, and has a 15" inch radome which mounts nicely on the stern of my CD27. Other nice features are display clarity, ease of operation, exciting display functions, and a beam angle which provides reasonable target separation. "Other" low end radar systems paint closely coupled targets as one large target.
My Furuno has performed exceedingly well for 4 years. Keep in mind that my need for range rarely exceeds 2 miles when in fog. The 1.5KW unit will produce good images for targets up to 8 miles away in calm seas. Objects beyond 8 miles can be seen, but interpretation becomes more art than science. If reliable 16 mile range is required, be prepared to spend some serious money.

In summary, understand beam angle, power output, compare displays for clarity and ease of use. Check out display features. Reflect on your needs. Most sailors I know here in Maine consider radar the single most important piece of equipment on board...Look carefully at the low end Furuno and Raytheon system specs, then go back and review the features offered on the JRC. You'll understand why the JRC costs less and be better prepared to proceed with confidence.

Good luck,
Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

I'm in the process of buying a radar system for my CD30. I have gone as far as ordering an entry level JRC system with 16 mile range. But several people have suggested that I cancel the order and get the more expensive Faruno instead. They are Faruno owners and I can appreciate thier loyalty but $500 is still a good savings if the JRC performs. Anyone have anything to say about either unit?
Thanks in advance!

Tom Robinson
CD30 Wild Rover

Satu@gwi.net

[Warren Stringer]

Tom,

I have a Raytheon 16NM on my CD30. What I found was the quality of image on the graphics display, width of sweep, hight of sweep, and power output to be the differentiating issues. One thing I didn't count on was that when trying to get the maximum range the targets returned the minimal painting. I figured that 16 NM would paint as well as 4 NM. Not so!

My sense is that the power is attenuated on the return path. Thus, if you want to go to greater distances, you might want to get a 24NM radar. Seems like the break over point is at about 8NM. In my area, tankers, freighters and ferrys come shooting down Puget Sound at up to 35 Kts (the ferry goes that fast; it's jet powered catamaran). In the fog, I'd rather have the extra distance.

Steve,

You are running into two effects: First is inverse square, ie, double the distance to the target, return signal strength is only 1/4. Second is that distance to the radar horizon increases only as the square root of the height of the mount. My sense is that at 16 mile range you are seeing masts and superstructure of vessels, while at short range you also see hull.

Power is much less important to maximum range than the mount height and becomes a factor only for very high targets. Where power may be more pertinent is in the ability to burn through fog and rain.

Warren



wstringer@aristotle.net

[Warren Stringer]

I'm in the process of buying a radar system for my CD30. I have gone as far as ordering an entry level JRC system with 16 mile range. But several people have suggested that I cancel the order and get the more expensive Faruno instead. They are Faruno owners and I can appreciate thier loyalty but $500 is still a good savings if the JRC performs. Anyone have anything to say about either unit?
Thanks in advance!

Tom Robinson
CD30 Wild Rover

Tom,

Craig's advice is right on target. A few other thoughts from a relatively new radar user:

Increased power is more useful to "burn" through bad weather than to increase range, but comes at greater expense and usually has a larger antenna. This means more weight and windage aloft and potentially more trouble with the jib if you go for a mast mount.

A larger antenna, however, will have better ability to separate targets close together.

Think about whether you will use the radar mostly under power or sail, and what point of sail. Most radars have a vertical beam divergence angle of 25 to 30 degrees. If you are heeled more than 12-15 degrees, you will be scanning for aircraft and submarines but not surface targets. You may want to think about one of the manually or self levelling mounts.

SiTex is another company making low power units and has just come out with software to interface their radar with a PC. Don't know anything else about it, but if it catches on, expect the other manufacturers to copy the idea soon.

For what its worth, we sail in Maine and went with a 2 KW (16 NM) Raytheon Radome unit on a fixed mast mount. We reserve the option to cobble together some sort of an electrically operated levelling mount controlled from the cockpit pedestal. We chose Ratheon because of the feature which allows a chartplotter to be integrated into the systen, with either unit fully controlling and displaying information from the other, though we have not actually done this.

Good luck with your choice.

Warren
S/V Eendracht, CD 36
Robinhood, ME



wstringer@aristotle.net

[Bill Goldsmith]

Craig,

Can you describe your stern intallation on your CD27 and your decision process on stern mount vs. mast mount etc?

Thanks,

Bill Goldsmith
CD27 #173
Second Chance

Tom,
I chose the low end Furuno 1.5KW unit (Model 1621 I believe) with the LCD display because it got good marks from Practical Sailor, and has a 15" inch radome which mounts nicely on the stern of my CD27. Other nice features are display clarity, ease of operation, exciting display functions, and a beam angle which provides reasonable target separation. "Other" low end radar systems paint closely coupled targets as one large target.
My Furuno has performed exceedingly well for 4 years. Keep in mind that my need for range rarely exceeds 2 miles when in fog. The 1.5KW unit will produce good images for targets up to 8 miles away in calm seas. Objects beyond 8 miles can be seen, but interpretation becomes more art than science. If reliable 16 mile range is required, be prepared to spend some serious money.

In summary, understand beam angle, power output, compare displays for clarity and ease of use. Check out display features. Reflect on your needs. Most sailors I know here in Maine consider radar the single most important piece of equipment on board...Look carefully at the low end Furuno and Raytheon system specs, then go back and review the features offered on the JRC. You'll understand why the JRC costs less and be better prepared to proceed with confidence.

Good luck,
Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

I'm in the process of buying a radar system for my CD30. I have gone as far as ordering an entry level JRC system with 16 mile range. But several people have suggested that I cancel the order and get the more expensive Faruno instead. They are Faruno owners and I can appreciate thier loyalty but $500 is still a good savings if the JRC performs. Anyone have anything to say about either unit?
Thanks in advance!

Tom Robinson
CD30 Wild Rover

goldy@bestweb.net

[Ken Cave]

Ditto on a good radar!
I have a Raytheon SL 72 model with a backstay mount. Cost a bit more than the basic models-but worth every penny when your life might be a stake.

Yesterday I got into some heavy stuff in Thacher Pass in the San Juan Islands and with the radar set at a quarter of a mile, I was even picking up the ferry wakes, small boats, even the markers that suggest rocks!

Ducked out of the fog and waited for it to blow over at Spencer Spit-but in the islands in the northwest, you really need a good system that can pick up at a quarter-half mile range!

Ken Cave
Cape Dory 28 #227



bcave@whidbey.net

[Craig Urquhart]

Bill,
My Furuno Radome is stern mounted using the Edson 90" Radar Mast Kit available from West Marine. The kit includes a dome mounting platter, a 90 inch 2 3/8" aluminum tube, a rail clamp and a baseplate used to anchor the tube. I shortened the tube to roughly 72" to minimize the bending moment, but tried to keep it high enough for effective coverage and safe operation = radome well above heads in cockpit.

The baseplate is screwed onto the stern teak (and deck below)on the starboard side in close proximity to the aft starboard vent. Near the base of the tube I drilled a 3/4" hole, through which I ran the radar cable into the vent and to the cabin. There may be 6" of cable exposed to sunlight. The installation looks pretty well balanced. If you grab the tube up high and apply force fore and aft it does move the pushpit rail some, but seems strong enough.

Reasons for stern mounting had to do with: 1) Ease of setup and service, 2) Avoiding modifications to the mast and hull, 3) Easy and clean removal should I decide to move up(to a CD30), 4)No risk of damage to the radome by the boatyard during mast stepping/unstepping, 5) No need for long cable and extra connector, 6)A need for good shortrange radar service and indifference toward long range performance.

I'll be setting up the radar this weekend. If you'd like some pictures emailed, send me a note.

Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

Craig,

Can you describe your stern intallation on your CD27 and your decision process on stern mount vs. mast mount etc?

Thanks,

Bill Goldsmith
CD27 #173
Second Chance

Tom,
I chose the low end Furuno 1.5KW unit (Model 1621 I believe) with the LCD display because it got good marks from Practical Sailor, and has a 15" inch radome which mounts nicely on the stern of my CD27. Other nice features are display clarity, ease of operation, exciting display functions, and a beam angle which provides reasonable target separation. "Other" low end radar systems paint closely coupled targets as one large target.
My Furuno has performed exceedingly well for 4 years. Keep in mind that my need for range rarely exceeds 2 miles when in fog. The 1.5KW unit will produce good images for targets up to 8 miles away in calm seas. Objects beyond 8 miles can be seen, but interpretation becomes more art than science. If reliable 16 mile range is required, be prepared to spend some serious money.

In summary, understand beam angle, power output, compare displays for clarity and ease of use. Check out display features. Reflect on your needs. Most sailors I know here in Maine consider radar the single most important piece of equipment on board...Look carefully at the low end Furuno and Raytheon system specs, then go back and review the features offered on the JRC. You'll understand why the JRC costs less and be better prepared to proceed with confidence.

Good luck,
Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

I'm in the process of buying a radar system for my CD30. I have gone as far as ordering an entry level JRC system with 16 mile range. But several people have suggested that I cancel the order and get the more expensive Faruno instead. They are Faruno owners and I can appreciate thier loyalty but $500 is still a good savings if the JRC performs. Anyone have anything to say about either unit?
Thanks in advance!

Tom Robinson
CD30 Wild Rover

Satu@gwi.net

[Larry DeMers]

Craig, Bill and all,

You have the exqact same setup as I do, except I am using the Raytheon ST50 radar. My reasoning was identical to yours as well. After a few years of use now, I find that we have no use whatever for a range over 6 mi, typically we are on the 2mi. range and down from there. I also wanted the best possible close-in performance for negotiating buoys in the fog, as well as good midrange performance for using the radar to ID. shoreline features in the fog. The neat thing is that we can see the cement abutments (on radar) that guide the water from small creeks into Superior. These make great references in the fog and at night. We simply set the EBL at 90 deg. to our course, and when the shoreline feature is on that line, we know we are 90 deg. off of it, and the radar gives the distance off, so you have a radar fix. Adding in a running DR plot, and GPS/LORAN fixes on the opposite half-hour, gives one a good feeling about where in the world he is at.


Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~~~~~Sailing Superior~~~~

Bill,
My Furuno Radome is stern mounted using the Edson 90" Radar Mast Kit available from West Marine. The kit includes a dome mounting platter, a 90 inch 2 3/8" aluminum tube, a rail clamp and a baseplate used to anchor the tube. I shortened the tube to roughly 72" to minimize the bending moment, but tried to keep it high enough for effective coverage and safe operation = radome well above heads in cockpit.

The baseplate is screwed onto the stern teak (and deck below)on the starboard side in close proximity to the aft starboard vent. Near the base of the tube I drilled a 3/4" hole, through which I ran the radar cable into the vent and to the cabin. There may be 6" of cable exposed to sunlight. The installation looks pretty well balanced. If you grab the tube up high and apply force fore and aft it does move the pushpit rail some, but seems strong enough.

Reasons for stern mounting had to do with: 1) Ease of setup and service, 2) Avoiding modifications to the mast and hull, 3) Easy and clean removal should I decide to move up(to a CD30), 4)No risk of damage to the radome by the boatyard during mast stepping/unstepping, 5) No need for long cable and extra connector, 6)A need for good shortrange radar service and indifference toward long range performance.

I'll be setting up the radar this weekend. If you'd like some pictures emailed, send me a note.

Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

Craig,

Can you describe your stern intallation on your CD27 and your decision process on stern mount vs. mast mount etc?

Thanks,

Bill Goldsmith
CD27 #173
Second Chance

Tom,
I chose the low end Furuno 1.5KW unit (Model 1621 I believe) with the LCD display because it got good marks from Practical Sailor, and has a 15" inch radome which mounts nicely on the stern of my CD27. Other nice features are display clarity, ease of operation, exciting display functions, and a beam angle which provides reasonable target separation. "Other" low end radar systems paint closely coupled targets as one large target.
My Furuno has performed exceedingly well for 4 years. Keep in mind that my need for range rarely exceeds 2 miles when in fog. The 1.5KW unit will produce good images for targets up to 8 miles away in calm seas. Objects beyond 8 miles can be seen, but interpretation becomes more art than science. If reliable 16 mile range is required, be prepared to spend some serious money.

In summary, understand beam angle, power output, compare displays for clarity and ease of use. Check out display features. Reflect on your needs. Most sailors I know here in Maine consider radar the single most important piece of equipment on board...Look carefully at the low end Furuno and Raytheon system specs, then go back and review the features offered on the JRC. You'll understand why the JRC costs less and be better prepared to proceed with confidence.

Good luck,
Craig Urquhart
Satu CD27 #272

demers@sgi.com

[Steve Alarcon]

Your logic is sound, but the reality is that the image I am looking to paint is the freighters and ferries. My radar is mounted above the spreaders, about 26' above the water. At that height, a 16 NM radar should paint a picture of a 150' freighter with storage boxes piled on deck to a hight of 125' at 16 miles like a Leroy Neiman oil painting of an America's Cup Race between the Kiwi's and the Italians. But that is not the case. My unit has been checked out, it's working per mfr specs. My bet is on "free space loss", where power is THE major contributor.

Any radar experts out there with an opinion?

Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle



alarcon3@prodigy.net

[Ken Cave]

Sorry to spoil your thoughts on some wonderful paintings-but the radar just can't give us those pictures you would like to see.

The Evergreen (for those who do not sail the San Juans-this is one of the larger ferries that is operated by Washington State Ferry System) comes up like a BIG BLOB-and a moving big blob at that!! Once you recognize the shape-you will not forget it!!.

If you can see moving objects-like BIG BLOBS your system is working perfectly!

Ken Cave



bcave@whidbey.net

[Warren Stringer]

Your logic is sound, but the reality is that the image I am looking to paint is the freighters and ferries. My radar is mounted above the spreaders, about 26' above the water. At that height, a 16 NM radar should paint a picture of a 150' freighter with storage boxes piled on deck to a hight of 125' at 16 miles like a Leroy Neiman oil painting of an America's Cup Race between the Kiwi's and the Italians. But that is not the case. My unit has been checked out, it's working per mfr specs. My bet is on "free space loss", where power is THE major contributor.

Any radar experts out there with an opinion?

Steve Alarcon
CD30 Temerity
Seattle

Now I'm lost! What is free space loss?

Warren



wstringer@aristotle.net