I had my boat hauled for cleaning and inspection of thru hulls, and I just got a call from the yard saying that there is 'extensive' pitting in the rudder shaft (something not noted in the survey 2 years ago.)
He said the cheapest thing to do may be to get a new rudder rather than take out the shaft put a new one in, re-glass it etc.
None of this sounds cheap, and I'm very worried about it. I wonder if anyone has had experience with these kinds of problems and knows how much it might cost to deal with?
Regards,
Evan
Cost of rudder repair
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Bill Goldsmith
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 08:47
- Location: CD 32
Hi Evan,
I don't think you have enough information yet. "Extensive" is a very subjective term. You have to evaluate the actual extent of the pitting against the intended use of the boat. If you are planning a big voyage soon, it probably makes sense to evaluate and get repaired quickly, which would cost a premium. If you are just doing local trips and daysails you can probably leave it until winter haul out (do you haul for the off-season). In that event you would have more time to find and work with a good yacht repair person at a lower cost since it won't be time_sensitive (you would have all winter). As in many things the more you DIY the less outlay of money. A reasonably handy boatowner can drop the rudder and shaft on a Cape Dory. Then you could take it to a fabricator and have it duplicated (I agree it would be less expensive to build all new than to try to install a new shaft in the old rudder which would be labor-intensive. The old rudders are notorious for getting wet inside, so this would give you a brand new dry rudder with a new shaft.
I don't think you have enough information yet. "Extensive" is a very subjective term. You have to evaluate the actual extent of the pitting against the intended use of the boat. If you are planning a big voyage soon, it probably makes sense to evaluate and get repaired quickly, which would cost a premium. If you are just doing local trips and daysails you can probably leave it until winter haul out (do you haul for the off-season). In that event you would have more time to find and work with a good yacht repair person at a lower cost since it won't be time_sensitive (you would have all winter). As in many things the more you DIY the less outlay of money. A reasonably handy boatowner can drop the rudder and shaft on a Cape Dory. Then you could take it to a fabricator and have it duplicated (I agree it would be less expensive to build all new than to try to install a new shaft in the old rudder which would be labor-intensive. The old rudders are notorious for getting wet inside, so this would give you a brand new dry rudder with a new shaft.
Thanks Bill,
Unfortunately time is a bit tight. I just resigned from my job and my apartment lease ends on July 31st. We're planning to cruise south to the Caribbean and perhaps beyond.
I haven't gone to look at it myself yet, I'll go and look at it over the weekend, but it is an unpleasant surprise to say the least. The cruising kitty is probably going to take a bad hit before we've even left the dock.
I have no idea how much it might cost me. If anyone has had their rudder replaced and has an idea of cost please let me know.
I did call Foss Foam and am hoping for a call back with some information. It seems they have a CD30 mold, but not a 33. So if I did have them fabricate a new one I'd have to have it removed and shipped to them.
Regards,
Evan
Unfortunately time is a bit tight. I just resigned from my job and my apartment lease ends on July 31st. We're planning to cruise south to the Caribbean and perhaps beyond.
I haven't gone to look at it myself yet, I'll go and look at it over the weekend, but it is an unpleasant surprise to say the least. The cruising kitty is probably going to take a bad hit before we've even left the dock.
I have no idea how much it might cost me. If anyone has had their rudder replaced and has an idea of cost please let me know.
I did call Foss Foam and am hoping for a call back with some information. It seems they have a CD30 mold, but not a 33. So if I did have them fabricate a new one I'd have to have it removed and shipped to them.
Regards,
Evan
an outline should do
Evan,
They should be able to work from a template - talk to them, but if you give them a full-size outline (a tracing on cardboard, or some such, with the shaft dimensions, , width at the pivot, width at edge, and where the taper starts, they should be able to fabircate a new one without you removing the old. a pair of calipers should do you.
If you're going to replace it, you might want to also replace the pivot shoe if it's worn.
Matt
They should be able to work from a template - talk to them, but if you give them a full-size outline (a tracing on cardboard, or some such, with the shaft dimensions, , width at the pivot, width at edge, and where the taper starts, they should be able to fabircate a new one without you removing the old. a pair of calipers should do you.
If you're going to replace it, you might want to also replace the pivot shoe if it's worn.
Matt
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moctrams
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Jul 21st, '06, 15:13
- Location: 1982 Cape Dory 30C,Gabbiano,Hull # 265,Flag Harbor,Long Beach, Md.
new rudder
From my experience working in a marina, your best bet is to get a new rudder. The hourly expense would be greater than a new rudder.
owners manual/rudder specs
Does anyone know where I can get specs on the CD33 rudder?
I spoke to Foss Foam. They don't have a mold for a CD33 rudder, but they do have quite a few Alberg molds and he wanted to check the specs of my rudder and see if it is the same as one of their existing Alberg molds.
If I need a new rudder, them having an existing mold could save me $1,500-2,000.
Thanks,
Evan
I spoke to Foss Foam. They don't have a mold for a CD33 rudder, but they do have quite a few Alberg molds and he wanted to check the specs of my rudder and see if it is the same as one of their existing Alberg molds.
If I need a new rudder, them having an existing mold could save me $1,500-2,000.
Thanks,
Evan
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Evergreen
- Posts: 351
- Joined: Sep 2nd, '06, 12:12
- Location: 1986 Cape Dory 36 - Hull # 139 - "Evergreen" - kept at Great Island Boat Yard - Maine
- Contact:
Robinhood
I had a new rudder made by Robinhood Marine for my CD36 a couple of years ago. They did a very good job at a reasonable price. They should have all the specs for your rudder.
Philip & Sharon
https://share.delorme.com/ADVNTURUNLIMITD (Where is Evergreen?)
http://northernexposurein2013.blogspot.com/ (Link to older blogs)
https://share.delorme.com/ADVNTURUNLIMITD (Where is Evergreen?)
http://northernexposurein2013.blogspot.com/ (Link to older blogs)
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Zeida
- Posts: 600
- Joined: May 27th, '05, 07:10
- Location: 1982 CD33 "Bandolera II" Hull #73Key Biscayne-Miami, Florida
- Contact:
I will be VERY INTERESTED in any info on replacing/making a new rudder for the CD-33 - If Robinhood Marine made one for the CD-36 did they have it shipped to the new owner? Ab out how much did something like that cost? Would a regular boatyard be able to remove the old and install the new one? Any info on this will be highly appreciated.
Zeida
CDSOA Member
CDSOA Member
Zeida,
I am in touch with Foss Foam and also had contacted Robinhood to see if they had the specs for the rudder. I didn't know they might fabricate one, that's good news, I will follow up about that.
Foss Foam has a mold for the CD36 rudder, but not the 33. They have several molds for other Alberg ones so they asked me to send photos and dimensions to see if it may be doable with a modified mold.
I can keep you posted with anything I find out. Maybe we'd get a better price if we order 2 at the same time
I am in touch with Foss Foam and also had contacted Robinhood to see if they had the specs for the rudder. I didn't know they might fabricate one, that's good news, I will follow up about that.
Foss Foam has a mold for the CD36 rudder, but not the 33. They have several molds for other Alberg ones so they asked me to send photos and dimensions to see if it may be doable with a modified mold.
I can keep you posted with anything I find out. Maybe we'd get a better price if we order 2 at the same time
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Zeida
- Posts: 600
- Joined: May 27th, '05, 07:10
- Location: 1982 CD33 "Bandolera II" Hull #73Key Biscayne-Miami, Florida
- Contact:
Thanks Evan... by all means, keep me posted of whatever you find. The problem with my rudder - it is completely waterlogged. I have drilled right through it several times to try and get some water out and some of it does, but it still weeps. Go to the link below in photobucket and you will see some of my problem.
http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26 ... ia/Rudder/
As it is obvious, my boat has a blister problem which I have been tackling with every haul-out... mainly cosmetic blisters, which we drill, fill and repair every time. These repairs have been holding adequately. My boat floats, does not get any water inside, is not in any danger of sinking. BUT the rudder has always been a bit of worry. As you can see, at the top of the shaft there was corrosion, which got worse with time... then we tried drilling some of it out and refilled it with epoxy as much as possible... so far, it has been holding. The repair you see in the photos was made in 2004 - this latest haulout in March 2010, the repair was still intact. Hope this helps.
zeida
http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc26 ... ia/Rudder/
As it is obvious, my boat has a blister problem which I have been tackling with every haul-out... mainly cosmetic blisters, which we drill, fill and repair every time. These repairs have been holding adequately. My boat floats, does not get any water inside, is not in any danger of sinking. BUT the rudder has always been a bit of worry. As you can see, at the top of the shaft there was corrosion, which got worse with time... then we tried drilling some of it out and refilled it with epoxy as much as possible... so far, it has been holding. The repair you see in the photos was made in 2004 - this latest haulout in March 2010, the repair was still intact. Hope this helps.
zeida
Zeida
CDSOA Member
CDSOA Member
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moctrams
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Jul 21st, '06, 15:13
- Location: 1982 Cape Dory 30C,Gabbiano,Hull # 265,Flag Harbor,Long Beach, Md.
West System
Why don't you do the West System barrier coat? I did a Cal 29 a few years back. Had a guy sand-blast it and spent a a couple of weeks applying the epoxy and epoxy/copper barrier coat. Never had a blister after that.
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
New Rudder
Evan, Zeida, all,
Let me say a few things about new rudders and CD rudders in general. Just highpoints, no lectures. Promise.
Other than mini CDs, all CDs' rudders are a sandwich, made from two sides fastened around a rudder post. The rudder post had several tangs, or fingers welded to the aft side of the post to transfer torque from the tiller to the rudder blade.
The Tys and other smaller sized CDs used a 3/4" sized solid post. The CD 25s used a solid 1" post. The older models' posts were made of bronze. The newer models used stainless steel.
These posts are straight rods, going from the tiller, passing through the rudder shaft and down to the lower end which is attached to the false keel.
The larger size CDs increase the posts to 1 1/4" and larger. The larger CD rudder posts are straight from the tiller/wheel mechanism through the shaft and into the top of the blade. Then the post is bent into an irregular "S" turn which distributes turning torque throughout the blade and becomes straight, in plane, when leaving the lower end of the rudder.
The larger rudders for the diesel powered models are basically the same design as those for the outboard powered models except that they have a cutout for the prop.
There is another way to build a rudder besides using a mold to build them from fiberglass. I have been building them for years out of marine plywood and fiberglass covering. Double and triple fiberglass tape to seal all joints of the sandwich.
The cost of a wooden rudder is about 1/3 of the cost of factory made shells.
I consider the most important part of the project is to fiberglass the joints well, especially the leading edge of the rudder. This is where most water entry is found.
Tip: The aft edge of the false keel is concave. Whether you use wooden or factory bought shells, when reconstructing in place, it is difficult if not impossible to pass fiberglass tape around the leading edge and then epoxy it. What I do, or you have someone else do, is grind flat the concave trailing edge of the false keel to allow room to tape the joint.
Attached is a picture of what a plywood rudder is like.
Good luck with your project.
O J
Let me say a few things about new rudders and CD rudders in general. Just highpoints, no lectures. Promise.
Other than mini CDs, all CDs' rudders are a sandwich, made from two sides fastened around a rudder post. The rudder post had several tangs, or fingers welded to the aft side of the post to transfer torque from the tiller to the rudder blade.
The Tys and other smaller sized CDs used a 3/4" sized solid post. The CD 25s used a solid 1" post. The older models' posts were made of bronze. The newer models used stainless steel.
These posts are straight rods, going from the tiller, passing through the rudder shaft and down to the lower end which is attached to the false keel.
The larger size CDs increase the posts to 1 1/4" and larger. The larger CD rudder posts are straight from the tiller/wheel mechanism through the shaft and into the top of the blade. Then the post is bent into an irregular "S" turn which distributes turning torque throughout the blade and becomes straight, in plane, when leaving the lower end of the rudder.
The larger rudders for the diesel powered models are basically the same design as those for the outboard powered models except that they have a cutout for the prop.
There is another way to build a rudder besides using a mold to build them from fiberglass. I have been building them for years out of marine plywood and fiberglass covering. Double and triple fiberglass tape to seal all joints of the sandwich.
The cost of a wooden rudder is about 1/3 of the cost of factory made shells.
I consider the most important part of the project is to fiberglass the joints well, especially the leading edge of the rudder. This is where most water entry is found.
Tip: The aft edge of the false keel is concave. Whether you use wooden or factory bought shells, when reconstructing in place, it is difficult if not impossible to pass fiberglass tape around the leading edge and then epoxy it. What I do, or you have someone else do, is grind flat the concave trailing edge of the false keel to allow room to tape the joint.
Attached is a picture of what a plywood rudder is like.
Good luck with your project.
O J
Last edited by Oswego John on Jun 14th, '10, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
So I took a picture of the pitting on my post, it is very very bad. I'm really not sure how this happened. The last time I saw it was 2 years ago during the survey and it was fine then.
In my ignorance I thought that the Zinc fish I attached to the rigging (which was partially corroded) and the zincs on my prop shaft were all I needed. I'm wondering if the grounding problem I had with my wiring was the cause, or if this happened before I brought the boat back up here.
Either way it looks like I have to get this taken care of. I spoke to Foss Foam, and they would need to make a mold, but say they can get a new rudder done in 2-3 weeks. The alternative is to get a fiberglass shop closer by, but it seems like Foss specialize in this work and may be a good choice. I don't have the time, place, or skill to do this myself.
Evan
In my ignorance I thought that the Zinc fish I attached to the rigging (which was partially corroded) and the zincs on my prop shaft were all I needed. I'm wondering if the grounding problem I had with my wiring was the cause, or if this happened before I brought the boat back up here.
Either way it looks like I have to get this taken care of. I spoke to Foss Foam, and they would need to make a mold, but say they can get a new rudder done in 2-3 weeks. The alternative is to get a fiberglass shop closer by, but it seems like Foss specialize in this work and may be a good choice. I don't have the time, place, or skill to do this myself.
Evan
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Rudder Post
Hi Evan,
#1 What material is your rudder post made of? What kind of metal?
#2 Do I understand that you had/have a grounding problem?
#3 Do you tie up at a dock or at a mooring?
#4 If you tie up at a dock, do you ever tie in to AC shore power?
You can install a new rudder and post, but if you don't correct whatever is the cause of the supposed electrolysis, the problem will repeat itself every two years or so.
It's like putting a bandaid on a cancer.
O J
#1 What material is your rudder post made of? What kind of metal?
#2 Do I understand that you had/have a grounding problem?
#3 Do you tie up at a dock or at a mooring?
#4 If you tie up at a dock, do you ever tie in to AC shore power?
You can install a new rudder and post, but if you don't correct whatever is the cause of the supposed electrolysis, the problem will repeat itself every two years or so.
It's like putting a bandaid on a cancer.
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
John,
#1 The post is 1.5 inch stainless steel.
#2 I had a problem where the ground from the autopilot had been mistakenly hooked up to the AC ground.
#3 I was tied at a dock in the water here in NJ since July
#4 I was hooked up to AC shore power
When I bought the boat it had been sitting at a dock in NC, attached to shore power for at least a year. But there was no pitting. I think the autopilot grounding problem was introduced after that time. Once I get a new post / rudder I will certainly ensure that this problem does not repeat itself. It was upsetting to find out that I had this expensive problem when the rudder had surveyed very well originally.
#1 The post is 1.5 inch stainless steel.
#2 I had a problem where the ground from the autopilot had been mistakenly hooked up to the AC ground.
#3 I was tied at a dock in the water here in NJ since July
#4 I was hooked up to AC shore power
When I bought the boat it had been sitting at a dock in NC, attached to shore power for at least a year. But there was no pitting. I think the autopilot grounding problem was introduced after that time. Once I get a new post / rudder I will certainly ensure that this problem does not repeat itself. It was upsetting to find out that I had this expensive problem when the rudder had surveyed very well originally.