Sudden leak in bilge of my 25D

d1trout · Post by **d1trout** » May 25th, '10, 00:19

Fellow sailors, today I set out to fit a new bilge pump in Stargazer. I cleaned the bilge carefully with acetone to insure a good grip with the 5200, located the best spot for the Rule pump, marked the screw holes in the base and put a 3/32 bit in the drill. I drilled down about 1/2 inch and water began shooting out of the hole!! You can imagine my surprise and dismay!!
I had some putty at hand that I'd been using to bed stantions and I kneaded a ball of that to soften it up and crammed it into this very small hole. Then I mixed up some epoxy putty and replaced the bedding putty with epoxy. Seems to be just oozing at the moment, apparently due to sideways seepage thru the roughly laid fiberglass in the bilge.
My question is: I certainly didn't drill thru the hull; it goes down a couple of feet at this point. So I surmise that I tapped a pocket of water the has infiltrated the space between the lead of the keel and the fiberglass slurry that we are told CD put in on top of the lead to form a solid sealed bilge. I am tempted to drill a larger hole and pump all the water out of this void and fill it with resin or foam and then seal over the hole. How did this water get there? Am I missing something in my deductions? Has anyone else had this problem and if so, how did you resolve it?
Thanks for any help you can offer.

Dick Galland
Sailing Stargazer on Monterey Bay

Russell · Post by **Russell** » May 25th, '10, 00:45

Okay, if I get this right, you drilled directly down from the bottom of the bilge, in which case you certainly should not be seeing seawater coming in. Like you said, your were drilling towards the encapsulated ballast, not towards the sea. First thing that comes to mind though, you said water was "shooting out", that does not make sense to me, even if water had made it into the glassed off ballast area, it wouldnt come shooting out, maybe seep out. Unless there is perhaps some temperature/pressure issue that causes it to shoot out?

I cannot remember where the holding tank in a 25D is, I thought it was forward, but perhaps i remember wrong (likely). In the CD36 you actually can end up drilling into the holding tank if you drill aft enough in the base of the bilge. Is this a possability here? Though I suspect you would have smelled it if that was an issue.

If indeed you do have your encapsulated keel full of water, honestly next seal when you haul you need to drill drain holes all over, dry it out for months and seal it with a good barrier coat. But unless you had a serious issue that a previous owner caused, its hard to imagine the encapsulated ballast being penetrated bu water, we are talking a lot of glass. Its not unusual for water to penetrate poorly done and thin glass, but we are talk like 1" thick here, not just some blister issues.

Did the previous owner do what you just tried to do? Drill some holes in the bilge and perhaps drilled too deep? Then left them like that for years? I would have thought you would have to drill at least an inch though, but maybe an old owner was over zealous about drilling. Is there old holes?

For what its worth, neither of my two bilge pumps is screwed down. Both are mounted on small plates that just sit in the bilge, with a heavy lead weight attached to the plate (we are talking like 3 or 4 lbs of lead here) to keep them in place, nothing is firmly fastened to anything. The first bilge pump came like that when I bought my boat (I assume CD origonal) second pump I copied the setup. Full on rollover capsize they wont stay in place, but in such a situation, even if they fall back upside down they will still do the job of keeping the boat afloat even if 6" of water is left in the bilge when they finish pumping.

Joe Myerson · Post by **Joe Myerson** » May 25th, '10, 05:57

Russell:

It wouldn't be the holding tank, which is in the engine compartment, just forward of and slightly below the engine.

Dick:

I'm as baffled as you are.

Was Stargazer in the water at the time, or on the hard?

--Joe

David van den Burgh · Post by **David van den Burgh** » May 25th, '10, 06:19

Dick,

I can't answer your question, but I've been doing some restoration work on a Pearson Ensign recently, and I was surprised to discover just how much air space there is around the molded-in ballast on these boats. I drilled a few exploratory holes in the keel and drained quite a bit of water. Perhaps something similar is happening with your boat if you're sure you haven't penetrated the hull.

moctrams · Post by **moctrams** » May 25th, '10, 07:21

I am assuming the CD25 has a deep bilge like my CD30. I work on a lot of sailboats and if the ownerâ€™s boat has a deep bilge, I mount a bilge pump in the lazzerette and run a hose down into the bilge and employ a â€œwater witchâ€

Bob Ohler · Post by **Bob Ohler** » May 25th, '10, 07:29

Dick, Please keep us updated on your problem.

I really hate to say it, but this sure sounds like you have seawater coming as a result of the new hole you just drilled. I would be interested in knowing the cause when you figure it out.

Good Luck!

Bob O.

Jeff G · Post by **Jeff G** » May 25th, '10, 07:31

If you were trying to fit the bilge pump at the bottom of the bilge then there is a chance that you could hit water. There is no lead ballast at the bottom of the bilge in a 25D. The lead is forward of the bilge and there is no room to mount a bilge pump there. I did replace an old garboard drain that was fitted to the bottom side of the bilge. When I measured the thickness there it was about 1 inch thick. Since you only drilled about a half of an inch you should not have hit water. When you say water shot up, that would indicate pressure and that could only result from drilling straight through the bottom of the keel.

I would seal that hole and build a bed of epoxy to drill into. Better yet, do not affix the bilge pump to the bilge bottom. Screw it into a piece of teak or Starboard and place it in the bottom. That is how mine is set up. I can pull it up at any time to remove debris or service it.

d1trout · Post by **d1trout** » May 25th, '10, 10:58

Gentlemen, I thank you for many thoughtful replies.
A bit more info: SG is in her slip in the Santa Cruz Yacht Harbor year around. The stream of water that came up thru the very small hole I drilled came up perhaps 4 or 5 inches. Assuming that I haven't drilled thru to the outside of the hull - and I really can't see how I could have done that; it is the deepest part of the hull - would the fact that the bottom of the bilge is at least a foot or 18" below the waterline create enough pressure to create such a stream? There are no tanks below the bilge in this boat.

Question is, if, in fact, water that has somehow intruded into the space between the lead and the bottom of the bilge, where has it come from? Perhaps a leak sideways thru a hull penetration? There are several in this area: two cockpit drains and the intake for the engine cooling, plus the sink drain. All have thru-hulls but might these allow some lateral penetration...???

My current thinking is to haul her next week and figure out the problem and how to resolve it. If it still leaks when she's out of the water, I've answered the question. Then I'll drill a larger hole or holes and suck the water out with my oil change pump. Then pour resin into the void.

Ultimately I will pour a smooth floor of fiberglass resin, setting a small bolt into the resin so that I can attach the pump to the floor. The Rule pumps have a base from which the actual pump unit unsnaps for servicing or cleaning. I want the pump as low in the bilge as possible and I don't want it unattached, potentially to be displaced in an emergency.

Your thoughts on how water might have gotten into the space would be most interesting. The hole in question is perhaps 3/32nds in diameter and in the bilge sump perhaps 12 inches forward of the aft end of the bilge. The sump in the 25D is perhaps 30 to 36 inches long and 12 inches wide. The access hatch in the sole is about a foot fwd of the base of the companionway ladder.

Thanks. This board is such a grteat resource!

David van den Burgh · Post by **David van den Burgh** » May 25th, '10, 11:13

d1trout wrote:Then pour resin into the void.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but too much resin will generate a lot of heat. Don't pour too much into the void at once.

As far as where the water came from on the Ensign, it seems most of it found its way through some cracks in the bilge floor.

Bob Ohler · Post by **Bob Ohler** » May 25th, '10, 11:20

Dick, I am still thinking you drilled through the hull. If it were me, I would try to get her hauled today.

Good Luck!

Bob O.

d1trout · Post by **d1trout** » May 25th, '10, 11:23

Dave, the one piece of detective work I haven't done yet is to taste the water leaking in. Salt would suggest external penetration. Fresh, a leak in the bilge floor. and I would pour only enough resin to level things out and make cleaning easier. I seen resin pots get hot! Thanks for the heads up!
Dick

Jim Davis · Post by **Jim Davis** » May 25th, '10, 12:23

Fill the bilge with fresh water and look at the outside for the leak. You could put food coloring in the water to make it stand out.

Russell · Post by **Russell** » May 25th, '10, 12:31

d1trout wrote:The stream of water that came up thru the very small hole I drilled came up perhaps 4 or 5 inches.

I think you absolutely drilled through the bottom and thats a seawater leak. I cannot imagine water in any voids having enough pressure to shoot that high. Stop at a chandlery on the way to the boat and buy a stick of underwater curing epoxy (the stuff thats like play doh which comes in a tube that you mix by hand) and plug the hole with that, but try to haul asap, the underwater epoxy will hold you over though, be warned though any oily residue in the bilge will prevent it from bonding well.

K_LeMans · Post by **K_LeMans** » May 25th, '10, 13:00

I agree with Russell.

I know we all take pride in the notion that our CD's are "heavily built", but I recently installed new backing plates for the seacocks under the sink and the engine water intake, and I can tell you that the fiberglass in those aft sections is (at least on my 30c) not more than 3/8 in. thick...

I would haul ASAP.

d1trout · Post by **d1trout** » May 26th, '10, 00:14

Fellow sailors, an update on the leak: I called my diver to meet me at the slip. Before he arrived, I tasted the water, the very little water, in the bilge. It tasted salty but there was so little and I had been splashing around in there yesterday that I am not 100% persuaded it was the seawater intruding thru the hole. In fact, the seepage had completely stopped. I completely dried the bilge and resolved with the diver to approach this again in the next couple of days. The weather here at the moment is lousy and SG seems out of danger. My next step will be to get the diver down and redrill the hole and poke a wire thru it in such a way that he will be able to see it from outside if, in fact, it goes outside. If so, I'll epoxy putty the hole inside and out and then pour a resin floor. I find it almost impossible to believe that the hole went outside. Perhpas I'm just in denial...
Dick

The Cape Dory Board

Sudden leak in bilge of my 25D

Sudden leak in bilge of my 25D

Not the holding tank

A thought

pump

Dick... we'll be watching this thread

Pouring resin

Dick, you should read Jeff G's repsonse to your questions.

cracks in the bilge floor

When you get her hauled