Battery Woes

[grabhamb]

While performing some routine maintenance on my three Surrette T-12-140 batteries this past weekend, one of the cells on one of the house bank took a lot more distilled water than I thought appropriate. Lo and behold when I looked carefully into the battery box, water was leaking from the battery. It's apparent to me that at least one of my batteries is shot but what about the other two? The previous owner had installed these pricey batteries but I'm wondering if they are worth the cost. One is dedicated to engine starting and the other two are wired in parallel for ship's service. These are huge batteries, at 16" by 12" by 7" and weighing nearly 100 pounds each. They are all three in the port lazerette of my CD36.

My questions for the collective wisdom of this board - 1) should I replace all three with equivalent sizes and amp-hours? 2) Are Rolls/Surrette batteries worth the cost? 3) Would another solution work better in the long run considering that my wife and I would like to cruise extensively within the next two years? 4) I've read and heard quite a bit about golf cart batteries. Would they be a viable solution? 5) Are AGM and fully enclosed batteries better than lead-acid for marine applications?

I realize that I've got quite a few questions and haven't begun to cover the other aspects of electrical manangement on board, i.e. alternators, chargers, etc. However, I'd be very appreciative of any suggestions any fellow CD'ers may offer. Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[Russell]

My opinon is that massive batteries are more pain then they are worth, several smaller batteries is a better alternative for sure, 6 volts(aka golf cart) works well, but the need for an even number can limit you, I use group 31s. I recommend measure the intended location for the bank (if you dont like the current spot, now is the time to move it) then look at the Trojan website (they offer by far the widest variety of battery sizes) and see what makes best use of the space, they come in so many difference heights and widths you can generally find something that maximizes your space.

Good quality batteries are certainly important, I am not sure Rolls are worth their cost, but Trojans cost less and are by far the most popular among cruising sailors for good reason. Note with Trojans, you are not limited to what they now market as their "marine" line. Any of their deep cycle batteries work just as well, the 6v floor machine ones for instance offer an interesting choice where you have a lot of height to work with but not much floor area. The marine line basicly just adds additional terminal posts to the batteries to simplify the numerous connections boats often make direct to their batteries (altinator, shorepower charger, solar, wind, battery monitor, etc... single posts do get a bit crowded).

AGMs are great for boats who keep a full charge (ie tied to a dock most of the time with a charger plugged in, or on a mooring with wind or solar topping it up). But since you plan to head out to do extended cruising I definately do not recommend AGMs, they really do not tolerate life at partial discharge well at all and most full time cruisers find permanent capacity loss pretty quickly. Its a simple fact that due to the loads from a fridge and many other things from full time life aboard away from the dock your batteries rarely acheive a full charge, since that last bit of charge takes a tremendous amount of time, even with daily engine charging and a large array of solar and wind most cruisers end up with a max charge of 80% much of the time. This leads to suflating plates. With wet cells this is not a problem, equalize once a year. AGMs and gels should not generally be equalized, since they force vent and you permanently lose capacity. Now if sulfating has caused a large loss, sometimes equalizing an AGM, which may cause 5% loss, will regain 20%, so manufactutures like lifeline do actually recommend equalizing to full time cruising boats, but all this adds up to that they are not ideal for a full time cruising boat. Stick to wet cells. I learned this lesson the hard way when I took of cruising with a very expensive AGM battery bank that I had to replace in less then 2 years. Until new technology comes along I will not put anything but Trojan wet cells in my boat while cruising. However if I used my boat in the more typical way (weekends only with maybe one or two week long trips per year) I might consider AGMs for conviences of maintence free.

[Boyd]

Hi All:

So far in about 10 years I have had in order:

Conventional Marine deep charge batteries
Expensive AGM's
Trojan golf cart batteries
Costco cheap golf cart batteries

I do a lot of extended cruising and anchoring out at intervals during the year punctuated with stays tied to the dock that last months. It sort of a mix of long term cruising and dock sitting while I have to work for a living.

What I found is the typical Marine deep cycle batteries dont last long at all. Mine only lasted a year. Fairly cheap to buy but limited in capacity. I originally had a 100 AH bank. They were overworked, because my load would pull them down in less than 24 hours. It reached the point where they wouldnt keep lights on for a night sail. Being 12volt you dont get many AH in the space compared to golf cart batteries.

I changed out to a 400 Ah quite expensive AGM bank, and changed out the charging system to accomodate them. The AGM's only lasted less than 4 years. The real killer was they quit with no warning what so ever. Ruined a trip over New Years when nothing was open. Unless you change every charging device to the special charging voltages they require you will fry them quickly.

The 400 AH bank of Trojan golf cart batteries lasted about 4 years also. They quit rather quickly but did give me ample warning. These are the most expensive golf cart type on the market. I would buy them again if cost were not a consideration.

I currently have el-cheepo Costco golf cart batteries. These are about half the price of the Trojans and so far seem to be holding up. I wont know how long they last for a while though. They dont seem to have quite as much capacity as the Trojans and the house bank will not start the engine if they are about 50 AH low. I have to use "ALL" to start the engine. The Trojans would start the engine even at 50% charge.

I do recommend a battery watering system, especially if your installation presents any challenges to checking water levels or adding water. Its so easy to just hook up the hose and pump in water.

Golf carts give you the most AH for the space and $$ of anything I have found. Hard to beat and typically golf courses exist all over the world so availability is not a problem. Try finding AGM's in out of the way places. I use a conventional sealed car battery for my starting bank. Both charge with an internally regulated alternator.

I cant argue with anything Troy said. I have the same thoughts.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fl

[Numbah134]

...zero, none, nada, zip cruising boat experience here. However....

I spent about 7 years under the impression I'd be putting my house off-grid (and researching OG power extensively) - and the advantages of large batteries in general, and R/S in particular among those (though Trojan certainly has the larger installed base, I think) were things I picked up in that research. Mind you, the smallest I was looking at were the S460 6 volt units at 12x7x16 (tall), 117 lbs wet, and you'd need two to do 12 volts. Trojan L16's are roughly equvalent.

Golf cart batteries are good in the sense that they are easier to handle at about 70 lbs, they are usually the most amp-hours for the buck, they can be found wherever you can find a golf course, and 4 of them would give you a larger house bank (440-500 AH at 12V) than your present set (presumably 12V 140 AH in parallel, so 280AH at 12V). If you can stand the inconvenience of multiple locations for checking batteries, you can spread the bank around to make it fit nooks and crannies better, with adequate-size wire (the price of which is insane the past few years) interconnects.

I'd simply say that in evaluating what to do, don't blame the battery for poor installation (which is the only way batteries spring a leak, IMHO).

If they are less than 7 years old, it might be worth calling R/S about warrantee, but I expect they will think the way I think about leaks, unless they had a manufacturing error like a bad batch of plastic.

With the setup you described, if you have two good batteries, you could make those the house battery (same type and age, unless they are very old and decrepit) and and replace with whatever you like (including a pair of golf cart batteries, aka GCBs) for the starting battery. But make sure that there's nothing that's going to crack the case of any of them in the battery well, and that they are well-secured so that they cannot slam around and crack each other.

[grabhamb]

Thanks for the informative replies. It seems to me that if four Trojan T-125's will fit in the same space, I'd increase my AH's at no appreciable increase in cost and a savings of 50 pounds or so.
I don't have the specs on my charger or alternator but if they were sufficient and working fine for the 3 12V Rolls/Surrettes would I have any difficulties with the four Trojans? Thanks again for your replies. Bob

[Maine Sail]

The Rolls batteries are by quite a long shot some of the best wet cells you can buy for the $$. I know one guy who has a bank going on 14 years old and I know of many others over 10. While Trojan's are good batteries they are not Rolls. That being said Trojan is not what it used to be. They used to publish plate thickness on the T-105 but no longer do? You can get a lot more for your money these days with US Battery, Superior Battery, Crown and some of the other 6V makers.

My buddy Mike manages a golf course and they spread sheet battery costs. Four years ago they switched away from Trojan because of cost increases. Their life duty cycle for batteries has remained unchanged in the last four years after the switch away from Trojan. This switch saved them over 40% in battery costs and they have seen no detrimental effects or increase in raw battery numbers needed for replacement. 6V GC-2 sized batteries are one of the most competitive battery sizes made and as such all the batteries are quite good in this size class as they have to be. Ten years ago when T-105's were $57.00 nearly every golf cart I looked at had Trojan batts today less and less do as the cost is now around $150.00 each. Just came back fro Texas and on two different golf courses they both had private label Johnson Controls GC-2's. These are the same batts sold at Sam's Club under the Energizer name.

Replacement with Rolls for your indicated use may be overkill. You can buy decent 6V batts for between $70.00 to $110.00 ea. Perhaps your batteries froze and split?

If you go 12V I do feel the Trojan SCS 225 (group 31) is a hell of a battery that not many companies can compete with. I would stick with wet cells over AGM as real world reports of AGM life have not been anywhere near the claims. According to my buddy Dave, who owns a battery distribution company here in Portland, he sees average life of AGM's that get returned for cores to be 3-4+ years with the occasional 5 year old set. $$$ per Ah 6V wets really can't be beat..

I think Boyd's life cycle experience is rather atypical with a proper charging and monitoring system. Deeply discharging any battery will severely shorten its life. If you can keep your depth of discharge to a max of 50% depleted they should last a good long time.

P.S. Our boat was cruised for 24/7 five straight years with 90% of it being "on the hook" and only 10% dock side. The entire cruise was done on Wal*Mart group 29 12V batts. The alternator was stock and "dumb" regulated. When I bought the boat the batts were on year six and still going strong. The PO had a Link 10, knew how to calibrate it, added distilled water when necessary and never drew the bank below 50%. Even batteries most would consider "junk" can last a long time when taken care of..

[Numbah134]

Thanks for the informative replies. It seems to me that if four Trojan T-125's will fit in the same space, I'd increase my AH's at no appreciable increase in cost and a savings of 50 pounds or so.

My understanding is that most people do keep house and engine starting battery separate - are you sure you want to combine the two? When I discussed replacing the house bank (2-140AH 12V at present) with 4 GCBs, I was assuming you'd still have a separate starting battery, which could be 2 more GCBs, or could be something else, so long as it's big enough to start your engine reliably after a few years of use and degradation. Mind you, I would not rush out and replace a pair of R/S if they were not showing signs of trouble.

When you've overdrawn the house bank, a separate starting battery lets you actually start the motor to recharge the bank, or get out of the way of something bearing down on you, or get away from the rocks you're drifting towards. Unless you have a manual starting option that actually works, I'd keep a separate starting battery...

[Solmar]

This seems like a good place to post our battery question.
Our batteries are Lifeline AGM and purchased by PO, this is our fourth season. Would like to know what the preliminary indicators are for replacement.

Thanks in advance,
Brian & Debbie

[Boyd]

In retrospect I did notice a very slight reduction in capacity before the precipitious decline.

I suppose a load test could give you a clue, although I haven't been able to find anything published that would help. Try contacting the manufacturer and see if they can give you some guidance on this issue.

A preemptive replacement is probably the only way to not get surprised.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fl

[mattlydon]

In my CD28, I only have room for 2 group 31's. I'm currently running a Diehard platinum AGM, which is pricey ($250 or so).

I've always heard that wet cells give off nasty fumes, can be a corrosion problem, etc.

Real world exerience?

[Oswego John]

Matt,

Worse than corrosive fumes, when being charged they give off explosive hydrogen gas.

O J

[Jim Davis]

As long as they are properly secured and spill protection is provided there shouldn't be a problem with wet cells. The small amount of hydrogen they produce needs to be vented, but most sailboat lockers are fine (in other words - don't put them in sealed spaces). Hydrogen is lighter than air and escapes quite easily.

Wet cells can be a PITA in some installations for topping off the cells with distilled water, but this also makes you look for problems and gives early warning of failure.

[Dean Abramson]

My two Group 31 West Marine AGMs are starting their fifth season. They have been flawless. I charge them in the fall, then just leave them in the boat, still hooked up, all winter. When spring comes, they still have plenty of charge.

I know I am breaking some rules, but this is working for me.

Dean

[Maine Sail]

My two Group 31 West Marine AGMs are starting their fifth season. They have been flawless. I charge them in the fall, then just leave them in the boat, still hooked up, all winter. When spring comes, they still have plenty of charge.

I know I am breaking some rules, but this is working for me.

Dean

Dean,

As long as they are charged cold weather won't hurt them. If you store in a boat yard you may be breaking rules but if at home it is up to you. AGM's like to be topped up and maintained well charging wise...

[Dean Abramson]

I did not mean literally "breaking rules;" I just meant that what I do seems to buck the conventional wisdom. I checked my batteries mid-winter, and they had lost little or no charge; and they still look good now. (The boat is here at my house.) I will charge the batteries before I send the boat off on the truck next Thursday.

I am not pushing my routine; I am just saying that this has worked for me.

D