Hi all,
IN rehabbing TyTwo (soon to be Almost Blue), I've come do a dreaded part of the job: dealing with the rotted plywood knees under the deck (in the cabin) through which the shroud chainplates are attached.
The plywood has become delaminated and is wet to the touch (lots of water gets in the cabin right now).
In reading some other posts, it appears that these knees were a retrofit? Is that right? It looks like they are fiber-glassed into place -- at a 90 degree angle to the hull along the under side of the deck.
The obvious thing to do would be to knock these out and replace. Has anyone done this? Any advice?
Eric Woodman
TyTwo Framingham MA [/img]
Rotten Knees? Typhoon
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
TyTwo
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 17th, '05, 10:08
- Location: CD Typhoon Weekender Hull #2
Manchester/Framingham, MA
Rotten Knees? Typhoon
Eric Woodman
Almost Blue
Typhoon Weekender #2
Formerly Megan E
Almost Blue
Typhoon Weekender #2
Formerly Megan E
-
Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Rotten Knees
Hi Eric,
More than a few years back, there was a regular on this board whose name was/is Eric Woodman. If I remember correctly, he was/is a friend of John Ring. He ws also bosum buddies, best friends with Roger of Bristol Bronze. NOT
So if you are the same person, Hi, good to hear from you again. I enjoyed your posts.
If you happen to be a different Eric, well, hi anyway. Welcome to our world of boating.
Ah, the subject of rotten knees. This is very commonplace with the senior citizen boat owners today. Some of our boats have this problem, too.
I see that you own Ty Weekender #2. I am wondering if your Ty was made by Naugus Fiberglass or by Cape Dory. The reason that I wonder is because the W/Es made by Naugus were made with keel stepped masts and had their own set of hull numbers.
The newer version of the W/Es, as far as I can tell, used a tabernacle folding mast base on top of the cuddy roof. Some of the owners of the older keel stepped boats converted to tabernacles. This change put undue stress on the cabin roofs and caused them to become concave.
To alleviate this hollow in the roof, two ideas came into play. One was to construct an arch under the roof which extended to supports on either side of the cabin. The other plan to prevent the mast from flexing the roof was to erect a compression post directly under the mast. Both methods were bandaids, afterthoughts, add-ons.
The bowed trestle was a skull cracker and the compression post took up valuable space in the little cabin. Life is a compromise. A large part of the problem of rotting trestles is because the DIYer didn't use treated wood to make it. Then it wasn't encapsulated from the elements. In due time, it started to rot. I have seen trestles made of aluminum, too.
The rotted wood must be removed in its entirety. Then locate and indentify the source(s) of water entry. The leak(s) must be permanently sealed. Leaks can be frustrating to identify. At times they can enter one place, travel horizontally and emerge from a place you would never suspect. What I have done in the past is add food coloring to water which is poured from outside on suspected areas. Then look for color traces inside the cabin.
In my opinion, the strongest mast support is a compression post.
Good luck with your project.
O J
More than a few years back, there was a regular on this board whose name was/is Eric Woodman. If I remember correctly, he was/is a friend of John Ring. He ws also bosum buddies, best friends with Roger of Bristol Bronze. NOT
So if you are the same person, Hi, good to hear from you again. I enjoyed your posts.
If you happen to be a different Eric, well, hi anyway. Welcome to our world of boating.
Ah, the subject of rotten knees. This is very commonplace with the senior citizen boat owners today. Some of our boats have this problem, too.
I see that you own Ty Weekender #2. I am wondering if your Ty was made by Naugus Fiberglass or by Cape Dory. The reason that I wonder is because the W/Es made by Naugus were made with keel stepped masts and had their own set of hull numbers.
The newer version of the W/Es, as far as I can tell, used a tabernacle folding mast base on top of the cuddy roof. Some of the owners of the older keel stepped boats converted to tabernacles. This change put undue stress on the cabin roofs and caused them to become concave.
To alleviate this hollow in the roof, two ideas came into play. One was to construct an arch under the roof which extended to supports on either side of the cabin. The other plan to prevent the mast from flexing the roof was to erect a compression post directly under the mast. Both methods were bandaids, afterthoughts, add-ons.
The bowed trestle was a skull cracker and the compression post took up valuable space in the little cabin. Life is a compromise. A large part of the problem of rotting trestles is because the DIYer didn't use treated wood to make it. Then it wasn't encapsulated from the elements. In due time, it started to rot. I have seen trestles made of aluminum, too.
The rotted wood must be removed in its entirety. Then locate and indentify the source(s) of water entry. The leak(s) must be permanently sealed. Leaks can be frustrating to identify. At times they can enter one place, travel horizontally and emerge from a place you would never suspect. What I have done in the past is add food coloring to water which is poured from outside on suspected areas. Then look for color traces inside the cabin.
In my opinion, the strongest mast support is a compression post.
Good luck with your project.
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
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grajmahal
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mar 30th, '10, 09:53
- Location: typhoon weekender #108 (work in progress)
I just did this same job in my Typhoon a few weeks ago. The knees were clearly not factory, as the installation was pretty crude. I have since seen photos of the factory retrofits, and they are all very angular - mine were shaped more like a traditional knee, with some very nice curves in them, and I am pleased that I had what I think is the better looking design to work with. Here's how I tackled it:
I cut the old knees out with an air-powered cutoff tool to try to salvage the shape to use as a pattern. This mostly worked, although the old knees came out in layers as the plywood had delaminated.
I ground off the old glass job, trying to get just to where the original interior finishing cloth was. The installer had glassed directly over the old interior paint, so this was pretty easy, as their glass job didn't bond very well.
I got a 5/4 chunk of an African hardwood called Iroko, which is supposed to be great for marine use, from Rockler. (on sale for 7.50 a board foot) I traced the patterns so as to have the grain at a 45 degree angle to the deck. After a lot of belt sanding to get the fit right, and a round-over milled on the router, I glued them in place with some cab-o-sil thickened West Epoxy and a couple of clamps attached to a chunk of 1x4 led to the adjacent locker opening. Getting the positioning right is tricky, and it is very helpful to make a straightedge the width of the hull at the attachment points to ensure that they are in there truly athwartships.
After letting them set up overnight, I glassed them in with Epoxy and mat. This was a mistake, and I would not recommend using mat for this application. Use cloth instead. Epoxy doesn't release the binder very well in fiberglass mat, and I wound up in that teeny cabin for about 6 frustrating hours of jabbing at airholes with my fiber-clogged brush.
My chainplates had been 'upgraded' with long stainless pieces that penetrated the deck and bolted into these knees. This had obviously been the source of the water ingress, as they had been poorly bedded in the past. If you have this solution, you may want to consider some alternative that allows you some additional area for a seal to prevent the problem from happening again. I have opted for new bronze chainplates that are more like the original, but are tied into a bracket between the knees just below the deck for strength. Hopefully this keeps the new knees dry.
Hope this helps. This is a dusty, crappy job, but it is the only way to keep the deck in shape without buggering up the interior with a compression post. (My Ty has the original head, and I want to keep it, which precludes a compression post entirely. )
Good luck!
JB
I cut the old knees out with an air-powered cutoff tool to try to salvage the shape to use as a pattern. This mostly worked, although the old knees came out in layers as the plywood had delaminated.
I ground off the old glass job, trying to get just to where the original interior finishing cloth was. The installer had glassed directly over the old interior paint, so this was pretty easy, as their glass job didn't bond very well.
I got a 5/4 chunk of an African hardwood called Iroko, which is supposed to be great for marine use, from Rockler. (on sale for 7.50 a board foot) I traced the patterns so as to have the grain at a 45 degree angle to the deck. After a lot of belt sanding to get the fit right, and a round-over milled on the router, I glued them in place with some cab-o-sil thickened West Epoxy and a couple of clamps attached to a chunk of 1x4 led to the adjacent locker opening. Getting the positioning right is tricky, and it is very helpful to make a straightedge the width of the hull at the attachment points to ensure that they are in there truly athwartships.
After letting them set up overnight, I glassed them in with Epoxy and mat. This was a mistake, and I would not recommend using mat for this application. Use cloth instead. Epoxy doesn't release the binder very well in fiberglass mat, and I wound up in that teeny cabin for about 6 frustrating hours of jabbing at airholes with my fiber-clogged brush.
My chainplates had been 'upgraded' with long stainless pieces that penetrated the deck and bolted into these knees. This had obviously been the source of the water ingress, as they had been poorly bedded in the past. If you have this solution, you may want to consider some alternative that allows you some additional area for a seal to prevent the problem from happening again. I have opted for new bronze chainplates that are more like the original, but are tied into a bracket between the knees just below the deck for strength. Hopefully this keeps the new knees dry.
Hope this helps. This is a dusty, crappy job, but it is the only way to keep the deck in shape without buggering up the interior with a compression post. (My Ty has the original head, and I want to keep it, which precludes a compression post entirely. )
Good luck!
JB
-
TyTwo
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Feb 17th, '05, 10:08
- Location: CD Typhoon Weekender Hull #2
Manchester/Framingham, MA
Hi,
Thanks for the info. My boat is a Cape-Dory built Typhoon #2 (I know there were older Tys, but I like the moniker TyTwo:) )
when I first looked at it I thought the knees were from the factory, then I read some posts about retrofit knees, but reading these helpful posts I see the distinction between the TYs over the years.. There is a tabernackle on my boat and the blue paint on the knees matches the factory stuff. My best guess now is that the knees are original.
There is fiber glass over about half of the surface area of the knees, including the part where the chainplates are attached. I know that water is getting through where the chain plates are (were). I'm hoping I can get away with drying everything out well and simply glassing over everything. I want to get the boat in the water this year!
Oswego John: I am the same Eric Woodman.
Eric
Thanks for the info. My boat is a Cape-Dory built Typhoon #2 (I know there were older Tys, but I like the moniker TyTwo:) )
when I first looked at it I thought the knees were from the factory, then I read some posts about retrofit knees, but reading these helpful posts I see the distinction between the TYs over the years.. There is a tabernackle on my boat and the blue paint on the knees matches the factory stuff. My best guess now is that the knees are original.
There is fiber glass over about half of the surface area of the knees, including the part where the chainplates are attached. I know that water is getting through where the chain plates are (were). I'm hoping I can get away with drying everything out well and simply glassing over everything. I want to get the boat in the water this year!
Oswego John: I am the same Eric Woodman.
Eric
Eric Woodman
Almost Blue
Typhoon Weekender #2
Formerly Megan E
Almost Blue
Typhoon Weekender #2
Formerly Megan E