Do we need a smaller jib?

[oatmealraisin]

Greetings! We have a CD 22 on the Eastern end of Lake Ontario. The fetch can be rather long and boisterous. We have a 100% and 150%hank ons and the mainsail has two deep reefs. ( New sails) If we end up getting caught in one of the unpredictable storms- yes, we take precautions with weather predictions and respect the Lake- would our rig be sufficient, or would it be appropriate to obtain a smaller jib to use with the two reefs in? We have a Honda 4 stroke motor, 9.9 hp ( but, even a Honda can mess up at the most inappropriate time).
1. Do we even need a smaller jib?
2. If we do, what size jib would you recommend?
Thank you
Tom

[tartansailor]

We have a down haul, and a reef in our 100%.
It is a lot faster and easier reefing than changing sails.

Dick

[Dick Kobayashi]

I think the ability to quickly reef the 100% seems just right unless you are in a situation where you need a storm jib. Not talking so much about size as about strength and weight of canvas. It is a small boat and there are a lot of used sails around so this option might not be too expensive. I like the feeling of sailing in a stiff breeze with the right amount of canvas up. The boat becomes very alive.

[oatmealraisin]

The sailmaker, who made my sails, Haarstick, stated, "A Cape Dory 22, with two deep mainsail reefs and a 100% jib, does not need a smaller jib to be safe- and, it needs the 100% to give it drive because of the dynamics of the boat." I believe in Mr. Vigor's "black box" theory and felt that I needed more practical input from other Cape Dory sailors to be sure. The Captains of the Renaissance and the Susan B are both contradicting that advice. Their recommendations are well received. Can anyone address the statement made by the sailmaker regarding dynamics of the CD22 in a tough situation. The waves here can be very steep and close. ( Haarstick was talking me out of buying another sail, or paying to put an 'archaic' reef in the jib, so I feel that they felt their advice was sincere- I am not complaning about them at all. I trust the quality of their workmanship and customer response. But two CD Captains have said otherwise, and that gives me pause.)

[Joe Myerson]

I'm not sure how different a 22 can be from a 25D, but I'm inclined to agree with Dick on this one. We both sail our 25Ds on Buzzards Bay, which is also prone to sudden blows and short, steep chop.

Creme Brulee has two roller-furling headsails: a 130 genny and a 100 working/storm jib. I usually use the genny, reserving the working jib for spring and fall conditions.

However, I've had to reef both headsails down to less than 100 percent of the foretriangle (this works much better with the small jib) and tucked two reefs in the main.

Under the right circumstances, with the correct amount of canvas, the boat does indeed seem to "come alive."

--Joe

[Oswego John]

Oatmealraisin,

"But two CD Captains have said otherwise, and that gives me pause.

Make that three CD Captains.

Far be it from me to argue with a sailmaker who works with sails for his living. I can only tell you how I feel in regard to this situation.

You sail from the east end of Lake Ontario. The fetch of the prevailing winds are about 150 miles from the west. (Toronto)

I assume (there's that nasty word again) that from what you tell us, you have a hank-on jib. I agree with your sailmaker, your CD 22 is a small boat in comparison with some of the conditions that arise in a short period on the lake.

Early on, it was drummed into my head three words to ensure safety while sailing. #1- Balance, #2 - Balance, #3 - Balance

In regard to sails, the foresail's size should be at or close to the proportion of the mainsail's area. The original working jib and the mainsail were designed to be in a practical proportion with your hull design.

When you reef your mainsail and don't alter your jib, yes, there is some unbalance created, but probably not enough that you can't correct with the tiller. When you set a second reef in the mainsail, you are exacerbating the unbalance between the mainsail and the jib. This unbalance creates undue force on the rudder to prevent falling off the wind.

When a double reef is set in the mainsail, there are several methods to maintain sail balance. A roller-reefing system can be installed on the forestay. A smaller, compromise jib can be made up which will be in proportional balance with a single/double reefed mainsail. The third way is to do what Tartansailor and Dick K have suggested, have a reef or two put in your jib.

BTW (some purists might have me keelhauled for saying this), if you are skudding home eastward to port, ahead of a westerly squall, you might consider dropping the mainsail altogether and skud home with only a jib to prevent broaching.

Another viewpoint. Good luck.
O J

[Brian H]

I own a CD22D and last year I bought a 90% headsail on the advice from my sailmaker. What a difference that sail made. Under most conditions I am able to keep the full main up as well as the full headsail. If the wind pipes up I put a reef in the main and the boat maintains control and good sailing characteristics.

Prior to the new headsail I had the original baggy 100% jib and a 150% genoa which came with the boat. The genoa was fairly new but more often than not I had to partially furl it, which is not very ascetically pleasing, plus as I mostly singlehand the boat it was a pain and awkward to maintain a lookout under it.

I was the 2'nd CD22 owner in this area [ Boston] who bought a 90% headsail on the advice from this experienced sailmaker, each with great results.

I would highly recommend this size sail for a CD22.

[John Vigor]

The sailmaker, who made my sails, Haarstick, stated, "A Cape Dory 22, with two deep mainsail reefs and a 100% jib, does not need a smaller jib to be safe- and, it needs the 100% to give it drive because of the dynamics of the boat." I believe in Mr. Vigor's "black box" theory and felt that I needed more practical input from other Cape Dory sailors to be sure. The Captains of the Renaissance and the Susan B are both contradicting that advice. Their recommendations are well received. Can anyone address the statement made by the sailmaker regarding dynamics of the CD22 in a tough situation. The waves here can be very steep and close. ( Haarstick was talking me out of buying another sail, or paying to put an 'archaic' reef in the jib, so I feel that they felt their advice was sincere- I am not complaning about them at all. I trust the quality of their workmanship and customer response. But two CD Captains have said otherwise, and that gives me pause.)

Oatmealraisin, when your sailmaker refers to the dynamics of your boat what he really means is that it takes horsepower to punch a small, relatively heavy boat to windward through short, steep waves.

He's thinking that a mainsail is not as efficient as a hanked-on headsail, and he's thinking that if you reduce the area of the foresail you might not have enough power to make way to windward.

This all depends on so many things that it's almost impossible to be absolutely specific. Obviously, if you must get to windward, and the wind is strong enough to put your gunwale under continuously, you must reduce sail area. If you reduce sail area, you might not have enough power to punch through the waves.

In extreme situations like this it is often impossible for a small boat to make way to windward, and this fact of life should be factored into your forward thinking.

You might be able to sail at 90 degrees to the wind under a double-reefed main only, depending on the sea state, and if the wind is still too strong, you could probably make the same course under a working jib only, as long as you can handle the resulting lee helm.

If neither of those courses is practical, your only option is to run off before the wind and find shelter. You don't want any mainsail up on this course, not only because of the chance of a nasty jibe, but also because the sail's center of effort is far aft and will tend to make you broach and roll over.

So, if the boat is running too fast under working jib only, and the stern wave is threatening to break into the cockpit, your best bet is to reef the foresail and leave just a little rag up forward to pull her bows neatly downwind. And if she's still running too fast, you might try streaming a drogue from the stern and/or running under bare poles.

I don't know how far offshore you get, and some of this might indeed be overkill, but at least you should know what your best choices are.

A reef in the jib might be archaic, but so is a full-keeled heavy displacement sailboat like a CD22. And your sailmaker should note that not all that is archaic is useless. I hold myself up as a prime example.

I had both a Santana 22 and a 31-footer with reefs in the working jib, and I was glad for them on several occasions when running downwind in heavy weather.

It's fairly quick and easy to reef a hanked-on jib, certainly quicker and easier than removing the working jib and hanking on a storm jib, but if you have concerns about working on a sharply-heeled foredeck in choppy conditions you might want to think about a roller reefing system for your working jib. It's not as efficient to windward as a hank-on, but if you're not going to be able to make way to windward anyhow, the point is moot.

Anyway, I vote for a reefable working jib because, even if you never have to use it (and Sod's Law says you won't, if you have one) you nevertheless have one more seamanlike choice. And, as you know, that means points in the black box.

Sorry to be so longwinded, but that's just how it is.

Cheers,

John V.

[trapper]

I cannot address those issues, but I can tell you what we did when we had the 22 (which I loved).

We did not have reefing points in the main because the boat has a main furling system built into the boom. You can read about it in the manual. As for headsails, she had 3 a 150, a 110 and a 90.

The main furling system is awkward after you leave the dock, so you really need to decide how much main you will need for the sail before leaving the dock.

We were always conservative with the jib because of the issue with furling the main when away from the dock. Here in the summer, there are days with very light wind ( 5K or less) . We used the 150 on those days. We mostly used the 110 but when in doubt, we put up the 90.

One day it was blowing 10 gusting to 15. My husband thought the wind was building so we left the dock with the 90 and no furl in the main. We had a great sail! Buried the portlights a time or two but made it back to the dock after several hours of wonderful sailing.

When I checked the anemometer on the big boat after returning to the dock, the wind was blowing at about 22K gusting to 30!

We sail our current CD25D completely differently. We would probably take a reef in the main before leaving the dock when the wind was gusting to 15. But on the 25D it is all about the main because we have roller furler on the headsail.

Enjoy your 22, she is a very wonderful little ship. I miss mine.

[Dick Kobayashi]

Good advice for me too. I think John V sums up a lot of thinking and knowledge. One thing we don't know about you is the extent to which you have been out in the CD 22 in the conditions you describe. What's it like. I am now at a stage where the convenience of roller reefing and the inherent safety of reefing from the cockpit in the context of being a solo sailor is the prime parameter. I am a solo sailor even when I have have crew - they are more comfortable in this knowledge and with the exception of #2 son they are progressively less adventurous.

Based on what I know from this thread I would proceed as follows:

1. Get a reef in both headsails - there may be conditions where you want to reef rather than change the larger HS. See how it works out.

2. Get roller furling after you have experimented with Option 1 above and find it inadequate.

A tip of the hat to John Vigor for his explanation of the need for power to punch through short steep waves and sail configuration.

[Oswego John]

Dick K,

I got a big smile out of your expression in regard to your second son, "#2 Son"

more comfortable in this knowledge and with the exception of #2 son

I don't know how many readers remember Charlie Chan of black and white movie fame. He was the Oriental detective, counterpart of the British Sherlock Holmes.

Apparently, he was the father of several boys. He would fondly refer to them as #1 Son, #2 Son, #3 Son, etc down the line.

Charlie was famous for putting his palms together, bowing slightly from the waist and saying "Aaaah Sooooh"

Even to this day, some of us older coots still practice this ritual now and then, just for kicks.

O J

[oatmealraisin]

Yeeha! Fantastic response from all of you! It is good to know the CD22 can go to the port holes and do fine in a pinch- new seals are here.

We previously sailed a 23' cat-rig, fin-keeled Pearson and enjoyed it. We moved to a C&C 29.5, but learned that we preferred a smaller boat. We obtained a Nordica 16 ( really 14.5', nordic pointed bow and stern with a weighted small keel ) and sailed it primarily in Henderson Harbor Bay and just out to the edge of the open water. The Nordica was a dream and taught us how much we did not understand about sailing. We gave that to our son. We pondered and the best fit for our needs seemed to be a CD22 or 25. We learned of a 22 and bought it. I worked on it- need I say more- all Spring through Fall. We like her.

We have only sailed Inua once, because I had not rigged the reefing system to lead to the cockpit. With a 100%, she out-distanced a Catalina 22 with a 170% and two very expert crew. I used no skill at all, she just flat left the other boat, with sailors who are far my superiors. I was astonished.

So, I have no real experience in her yet. We will go to Kingston from the American side, as soon as I can understand Canadian head requirements, and we do camp out at anchor. ( Here, I will admit that we bought an Alberg 22, before the CD 22, and after a year plus of work on the hard, I burned out and sold her. There is an amazing jump in quality and sturdiness with the CD 22!)

We have an Alado Furling system that we obtained for the Alberg. It is still not unpacked. I also was quite curious why non-furling jib reefing, which had been used for eons, was considered an archaic, or inappropriate choice- it made sense to me and they look salty.

I solo some, but primarily sail with my wife, who loves to be out on an island in the water. I like seeing her enjoy taking the tiller. Our ability level is definitely less than those who kindly took the time to answer my queries. I will not take a foolish risk, but nature can toss Her dice. Any more thoughts would be most appreciated, given the new information I have supplied, as requested.
Thank You,
Tom CD22 #26 Inua

[tartansailor]

Want to be Elegant?

Sew a Cunningham in your head sails, use that as a reef if needed.

Dick

[Bob Ohler]

I read this thread with interest.

Can someone with experience on the subject, please explain to me how you reef the jib under sail, especially on the deck of a CD22?

I have opinions on this subject, but I want to hear how other sailors would handle this situation.

Thanks,

Bob O.
sv Aloha Spirit

[Sea Hunt]

Can someone with experience on the subject, please explain to me how you reef the jib under sail, especially on the deck of a CD22?

I have been sitting here for two (2) days trying to get up the courage to ask this question. Thank you Bob Ohler.

To Bob's general question, I add the following:

1. Exactly where on the jib are the reefing cringles On my main I have 3 cringles about 1' above the foot. At each cringle I affixed a small line already attached with a knot on each side of the cringle. When I reef, I do not have to look for lines to fold up the main. They are "pre-positioned" and ready to deploy. Do you (can you) do this on the jib as well

2. Exactly what part of the jib is reefed On the main it is always the foot that is rolled up. What about on the jib Is it the luff of the jib or the foot or something else It seems like if I roll up a portion of either the foot of the jib or the leach of jib it will impact my ability to control the jib sheets that are attached to a cringle at the clew of the jib.

2. If single handing, what is the procedure for reefing the jib

3. Is the procedure different if you have two sailors on board so one can be at the tiller If so, what are the differences

In any answers you may provide please remember I am a rookie sailor and dumber than dirt. Please use simple words. Diagrams or photos would be very helpful. If unsure of how to post diagrams or photos ask my web guru "go to" guy - OJ.