Playing with thoughts of getting better performance in light air, I'm considering removing the staysail forestay and putting a 135 in place of the yankee jib on the roller furling forestay.
I'm wondering whether this will place extra load on the design and whether I need to add running backstays or some other stiffening to the rigging to accommodate the 135.
Bill Gold
cd30 Seraphim
billgold@hotmail.com
Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
Bill,
My brother did it to his CD-30B and didn't have any problems. Flew a 155 to 160 genny too! Didn't change the rig at all, and everything held up just fine. I don't know how double running backstays would help anything, just more riggin' to be messin' with!
That said, Hanalei is a CD-30, cutter rigged, and she will live and die that way. I wouldn't change a thing, but then, I do sail in an area where winds greater than 15 knots are common most of the time. If I were you, I'd think more about a cruising spinaker than changing the rig to a sloop. A good lite cruisin' chute will triple your sail area, and is easy to handle single handed. And ya still got the original rig to give extra options when the wind does come up. IMHO...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
My brother did it to his CD-30B and didn't have any problems. Flew a 155 to 160 genny too! Didn't change the rig at all, and everything held up just fine. I don't know how double running backstays would help anything, just more riggin' to be messin' with!
That said, Hanalei is a CD-30, cutter rigged, and she will live and die that way. I wouldn't change a thing, but then, I do sail in an area where winds greater than 15 knots are common most of the time. If I were you, I'd think more about a cruising spinaker than changing the rig to a sloop. A good lite cruisin' chute will triple your sail area, and is easy to handle single handed. And ya still got the original rig to give extra options when the wind does come up. IMHO...
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Larry DeMers
Re: Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
Bill,
Why would you want to do this?
The Cutter has the mast farther forward to help balance the rig -will you be moving the mast step back? Don't forget that the structural beams in the cabin top are placed to receive the masts loading, and if you move that mast back, you will be off of the reinforcement completely.
The cutter mast is slightly shorter than the sloop version in most boats, which is to help spred the sail area over the three sails better.
So how do you plan to compensate for the staysail missing? That sail does contribute a lot of power and straightening of the air going up wind. I have actually added gear to the staysail outhaul to enhance and better control it's abilities.
The CD30 is meant to be sailed with a good 135-150% roller/reefing genoa. The secret to performance in this boat is sails that are set right. IF you feel that the staysail is superflous, I 'll buy it from you, as I will always run a staysail on DeLaMer (check this site and see how we set sail for a fast off-wind reach;
http://www.toolworks.com/capedory/gob-CD30/index.html
You can click on the thumbnail, and look at those sails closely.
Lastly, this may seem churlish of me..but the changes you make better be temporary, because the boat will be darn hard to sell later without the staysail gear. I know that the boat would not interest me if I were looking. The cutter rig is arguably the best rig out there for a couple or shorthanded situation.
You will never go faster by removing sail..only by understanding it's use and what it contributes to the whole.
The sail complement that we use all year round is a 140% Hood Regulator Genoa (built with 3 increasingly stiffer weights of sailcloth, so that a reefed sail is stronger than an unreefed sail), Ullman Staysail (original, but ready to buy yours if it is any good), and triple reef-pointed main. We also use a genaker for light wind work. With these sails, we can outsail just about any 30fter (except closehauled agianst a C&C30+, as they do outpoint us), and if it is a full keel boat, I can take on and beat anything up to 32-34 ft.+
long..especially Island Packets which are real dogs.
This is not due to great sailing skill, but rather a fast boat, with properly dispersed loads, and a love of her every movement. She will talk to you given the chance.
Here's conseling you to *not* do this change, and to learn to use the staysail as it is meant to be used.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
Why would you want to do this?
The Cutter has the mast farther forward to help balance the rig -will you be moving the mast step back? Don't forget that the structural beams in the cabin top are placed to receive the masts loading, and if you move that mast back, you will be off of the reinforcement completely.
The cutter mast is slightly shorter than the sloop version in most boats, which is to help spred the sail area over the three sails better.
So how do you plan to compensate for the staysail missing? That sail does contribute a lot of power and straightening of the air going up wind. I have actually added gear to the staysail outhaul to enhance and better control it's abilities.
The CD30 is meant to be sailed with a good 135-150% roller/reefing genoa. The secret to performance in this boat is sails that are set right. IF you feel that the staysail is superflous, I 'll buy it from you, as I will always run a staysail on DeLaMer (check this site and see how we set sail for a fast off-wind reach;
http://www.toolworks.com/capedory/gob-CD30/index.html
You can click on the thumbnail, and look at those sails closely.
Lastly, this may seem churlish of me..but the changes you make better be temporary, because the boat will be darn hard to sell later without the staysail gear. I know that the boat would not interest me if I were looking. The cutter rig is arguably the best rig out there for a couple or shorthanded situation.
You will never go faster by removing sail..only by understanding it's use and what it contributes to the whole.
The sail complement that we use all year round is a 140% Hood Regulator Genoa (built with 3 increasingly stiffer weights of sailcloth, so that a reefed sail is stronger than an unreefed sail), Ullman Staysail (original, but ready to buy yours if it is any good), and triple reef-pointed main. We also use a genaker for light wind work. With these sails, we can outsail just about any 30fter (except closehauled agianst a C&C30+, as they do outpoint us), and if it is a full keel boat, I can take on and beat anything up to 32-34 ft.+
long..especially Island Packets which are real dogs.
This is not due to great sailing skill, but rather a fast boat, with properly dispersed loads, and a love of her every movement. She will talk to you given the chance.
Here's conseling you to *not* do this change, and to learn to use the staysail as it is meant to be used.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Bill Gold wrote: Playing with thoughts of getting better performance in light air, I'm considering removing the staysail forestay and putting a 135 in place of the yankee jib on the roller furling forestay.
I'm wondering whether this will place extra load on the design and whether I need to add running backstays or some other stiffening to the rigging to accommodate the 135.
Bill Gold
cd30 Seraphim
demers@sgi.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Hear Him, hear Him ! ! !
Bill,
I agree with every word Larry utters. Quite often when working to weather in 15 - 25 knot winds, with the chains submerged, Carol will come up from below and say, after looking forward over the bows at another vessel, "What are you doing, trying to catch them?". Captains' response, "No, I'm not going to catch them, I'm going to bust 'em up!" The CD-30 will carry all her flags a flyin', working to weather, in a good 20 - 22 knot blow. At 25 knots I find she can be somewhat overpowered and will do better if I throw a reef in her, but even so, she's a lot of fun.
Oh, and in 30 to 35 knots with a double reef and stays'l alone she will still out sail many other 30 footers(at 30 - 35 most others are striking all sail and lowering topmasts to the deck) who will most likely give up and go home!
I agree with Larry, don't change a thing....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
I agree with every word Larry utters. Quite often when working to weather in 15 - 25 knot winds, with the chains submerged, Carol will come up from below and say, after looking forward over the bows at another vessel, "What are you doing, trying to catch them?". Captains' response, "No, I'm not going to catch them, I'm going to bust 'em up!" The CD-30 will carry all her flags a flyin', working to weather, in a good 20 - 22 knot blow. At 25 knots I find she can be somewhat overpowered and will do better if I throw a reef in her, but even so, she's a lot of fun.
Oh, and in 30 to 35 knots with a double reef and stays'l alone she will still out sail many other 30 footers(at 30 - 35 most others are striking all sail and lowering topmasts to the deck) who will most likely give up and go home!
I agree with Larry, don't change a thing....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Patrick Turner
Re: Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
I don't think there's any problem with sailing the CD30 as a Sloop in lighter conditons. The "slot" on the CD30 is relatively small for a cutter and in winds under 10 knots I find that unless I want to spend time "pumping the stays'l" sheet....which will sometimes help get a reluctant jib around and through the slot...I'll have to go up and help the Jib through.
I know of a few cutter rigs that are set up with a Pelican or similar detatchable inner forestay and when the winds are light....they pull down the stays'l...put up a larger geneoa and go have fun. I've talked with my local Hood sailmaker about this setup and he sez it's done quite often on cutter rigs. Using a spinnaker or drifter or assymetrical spinnaker is fine if your planning on being on one point of sail for awhile, but if your sailing in a bay or body of water that requires you to tack through out the day.....then a larger geneoa with the stays'l stowed away during light air days is a fine option. Just don't lose that stays'l all together, cuz' when it pipes up over 25 knots it's pretty hard to beat the stays'l with a double reef in the main and that's it....really sails nice!
Bye the way.....I just installed running backstays. The CD30 has no opposing backstays to the inner forestay like on every other cutter you'll ever see.Next time your out sailing on a windy day...maybe with just the stays'l and reefed main...go take a look at what your mast is doing. You can't put enough tension on the inner forestay to get real good sail shape in a strong wind without putting too much tension on the mast where the inner stay attatches....it's definitely possible to do damage to the mast. The running backstays (which when desingned correctly) are removable and not difficult to use and only necesary on pretty windy days.
Pat
patturner@earthlink.net
I know of a few cutter rigs that are set up with a Pelican or similar detatchable inner forestay and when the winds are light....they pull down the stays'l...put up a larger geneoa and go have fun. I've talked with my local Hood sailmaker about this setup and he sez it's done quite often on cutter rigs. Using a spinnaker or drifter or assymetrical spinnaker is fine if your planning on being on one point of sail for awhile, but if your sailing in a bay or body of water that requires you to tack through out the day.....then a larger geneoa with the stays'l stowed away during light air days is a fine option. Just don't lose that stays'l all together, cuz' when it pipes up over 25 knots it's pretty hard to beat the stays'l with a double reef in the main and that's it....really sails nice!
Bye the way.....I just installed running backstays. The CD30 has no opposing backstays to the inner forestay like on every other cutter you'll ever see.Next time your out sailing on a windy day...maybe with just the stays'l and reefed main...go take a look at what your mast is doing. You can't put enough tension on the inner forestay to get real good sail shape in a strong wind without putting too much tension on the mast where the inner stay attatches....it's definitely possible to do damage to the mast. The running backstays (which when desingned correctly) are removable and not difficult to use and only necesary on pretty windy days.
Pat
patturner@earthlink.net
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Bill Gold
Re: Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
Pat, Larry and Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I'll give this some more thought. Looks like I could put a 135 or 140 on the roller furling and keep the staysail intact. I mostly sail alone and wanted to simplify tacking... eliminating going forward to help the jib through the slot or alternatively, furling then unfurling on the new tack. Sounds like I could put a ginny on the furling gear (or rig a spinnaker) and keep the staysail intact, maybe adding the pelican hook for ease of moving it when not using the staysail. (In heavier sea and wind, I wouldn't use the jib anyway... just a reefed main and the staysail). That would cover me in the light summer winds in Puget Sound and heavier winds in the Georgia Strait or elsewhere. I definitely would not move the mast and don't want to unbalance a great design.
You guys are great. Thanks.
billgold@hotmail.com
Thanks for the advice. I'll give this some more thought. Looks like I could put a 135 or 140 on the roller furling and keep the staysail intact. I mostly sail alone and wanted to simplify tacking... eliminating going forward to help the jib through the slot or alternatively, furling then unfurling on the new tack. Sounds like I could put a ginny on the furling gear (or rig a spinnaker) and keep the staysail intact, maybe adding the pelican hook for ease of moving it when not using the staysail. (In heavier sea and wind, I wouldn't use the jib anyway... just a reefed main and the staysail). That would cover me in the light summer winds in Puget Sound and heavier winds in the Georgia Strait or elsewhere. I definitely would not move the mast and don't want to unbalance a great design.
You guys are great. Thanks.
Bill Gold wrote: Bill Gold
cd30 Seraphim
billgold@hotmail.com
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Duncan maio
Re: Converting a CD30 cutter to a sloop
Bill:
I have no idea about the engineering or sailplan balancing, but there is a CD30 at Bristol Marine that has the inner forestay removed and has two forestays - both run from the masthead to the bowsprit (side by side), and both have roller furlers.
She is for sale - the marina office can give you the owner's number. Ask Karen for the owner of Lee Wind.
-Duncan Maio
s/v Remedy
CD27 #37
dmaio@meganet.net
I have no idea about the engineering or sailplan balancing, but there is a CD30 at Bristol Marine that has the inner forestay removed and has two forestays - both run from the masthead to the bowsprit (side by side), and both have roller furlers.
She is for sale - the marina office can give you the owner's number. Ask Karen for the owner of Lee Wind.
-Duncan Maio
s/v Remedy
CD27 #37
dmaio@meganet.net