Was helping a friend (W. Goldsmith, CD27) do the Spring maintenence along with some other wish list projects on his boat before she goes in, and noticed cracking in the fiberglass of the rudder where the rudder post goes in to the rudder. After some investigation, it looks like this was caused be turning the rudder hard over to the limit of travel. The limit seems to be when the rudder (usually a couple of inches aft of the post) contacts the hull (the faired section of the hull right above the rudder). Pushing lightly on teh tiller or even the rudder, a little bending of the rudder post and rudder can be seen. This flexing of the rudder post is causing the rigid fiber glass to flex and crack. Does anyone know what is to limit rudder travel so as not to stress this bond between the post and fiberglass rudder??? What is the shape of the rudder fiberglass where the post comes out (maybe the shape so as another part of the rudder contacts the hull)??? Has anyone else noticed this???
yashinsk@cloud9.net
Rudders and travel limits???
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Rudder should NOT be touching the hull!
Mark & Bill,
The rudder should NOT touch the hull when the helm is hard over. If it does it can cause damage to the hull or to the rudder. The stop is internal to the helm. On a wheel steered vessel the stop is built into the helm sheeve support directly under the helm. Ya gotta crawl into the cockpit lockers to see this. I know, I did it just this last weekend.
It could be that the stops have broken off or are mispositioned. But you should take a look at it. If you only go forward, the stops don't really do anything. But if you power in reverse and the helmsperson releases the helm, the force of water against the rudder will slam it over to a hard stop. If that hard stop is the hull, ya got a problem! If the point where the rudder post enters the rudder is cracked(but not displaced) I would simply seal it with some 5200 or some such. Make sure the rudder is dry first though.
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
The rudder should NOT touch the hull when the helm is hard over. If it does it can cause damage to the hull or to the rudder. The stop is internal to the helm. On a wheel steered vessel the stop is built into the helm sheeve support directly under the helm. Ya gotta crawl into the cockpit lockers to see this. I know, I did it just this last weekend.
It could be that the stops have broken off or are mispositioned. But you should take a look at it. If you only go forward, the stops don't really do anything. But if you power in reverse and the helmsperson releases the helm, the force of water against the rudder will slam it over to a hard stop. If that hard stop is the hull, ya got a problem! If the point where the rudder post enters the rudder is cracked(but not displaced) I would simply seal it with some 5200 or some such. Make sure the rudder is dry first though.
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
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Bill Goldsmith
Dave, It's a tiller.
Dave:
Thanks for your input. However, this is a tiller-steered boat--I do not see any mechanical stops anywhere. There is just the rudder post through the tube, and a fittling at the top of the tube where the tiller attaches.
Seems like glass-to glass is the only stop. Is this correct?
Bill Goldsmith
Cd27
Second Chance
goldy@bestweb.net
Thanks for your input. However, this is a tiller-steered boat--I do not see any mechanical stops anywhere. There is just the rudder post through the tube, and a fittling at the top of the tube where the tiller attaches.
Seems like glass-to glass is the only stop. Is this correct?
Bill Goldsmith
Cd27
Second Chance
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Mark & Bill,
The rudder should NOT touch the hull when the helm is hard over. If it does it can cause damage to the hull or to the rudder. The stop is internal to the helm. On a wheel steered vessel the stop is built into the helm sheeve support directly under the helm. Ya gotta crawl into the cockpit lockers to see this. I know, I did it just this last weekend.
It could be that the stops have broken off or are mispositioned. But you should take a look at it. If you only go forward, the stops don't really do anything. But if you power in reverse and the helmsperson releases the helm, the force of water against the rudder will slam it over to a hard stop. If that hard stop is the hull, ya got a problem! If the point where the rudder post enters the rudder is cracked(but not displaced) I would simply seal it with some 5200 or some such. Make sure the rudder is dry first though.
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
goldy@bestweb.net
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Dana
Re: Rudders and travel limits???
Strange...but should be consistent with other CD27 I would imagine.Mark Yashinsky wrote:
On the CD26 the SS rudder post comes down at an angle to the top leading edge. The top edge of the rudder is completely clear (and horizontally flat) with about a 3/4" spacing between the hull and top edge. The shape of the aft hull is in the shape of a Vee with a flatten horizontal surface at the rudder post exit...thus the rudder can not touch the sides of the hull except if it was possible to do about a 120 degree turn....The top edge of the rudder is straight flat.
The forward edge of the rudder, however is curved, which recesses slightly into a "matched opposite curved" section of the aft of the keel. The rudder shaft bearing tube alignment is not "perfect" but there is about a 1 inch gap from the rudder leading edge to the deepest section of the hull recess. Mine looks a little more tight as one approaches the bottom rudder "shoe" bearing. This may be an indication that tolerances of shaft bearing alignment between the cockpit sole and hull may be "off" sometimes or vary slightly based on each boat installation. The limit on the CD26 rudder turn would be the edges of the keel recess area. The rudder can be only turned about 45 to 60 degrees and for that the forward rudder section does not touch the aft keel recessed "U" ends.
I know each boat is different, perhaps especially with the CD27 with longer overhangs....but I hope it helps to compare...next is to discuss with other CD27 owner...
Was helping a friend (W. Goldsmith, CD27) do the Spring maintenence along with some other wish list projects on his boat before she goes in, and noticed cracking in the fiberglass of the rudder where the rudder post goes in to the rudder. After some investigation, it looks like this was caused be turning the rudder hard over to the limit of travel. The limit seems to be when the rudder (usually a couple of inches aft of the post) contacts the hull (the faired section of the hull right above the rudder). Pushing lightly on teh tiller or even the rudder, a little bending of the rudder post and rudder can be seen. This flexing of the rudder post is causing the rigid fiber glass to flex and crack. Does anyone know what is to limit rudder travel so as not to stress this bond between the post and fiberglass rudder??? What is the shape of the rudder fiberglass where the post comes out (maybe the shape so as another part of the rudder contacts the hull)??? Has anyone else noticed this???
darenius@aol.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Yes, I knew that, but....
Bill,
Yeh, I knew from the description that it was a tiller. It surprises me that the tiller doesn't have some type of mechanical stop. Maybe the thinking was that it wasn't necessary, but if the tiller goes hard over in reverse, I would think it could cause some significant damage. I wonder if anyone else with tiller steering will comment on weather or not they have mechanical stops...
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
Yeh, I knew from the description that it was a tiller. It surprises me that the tiller doesn't have some type of mechanical stop. Maybe the thinking was that it wasn't necessary, but if the tiller goes hard over in reverse, I would think it could cause some significant damage. I wonder if anyone else with tiller steering will comment on weather or not they have mechanical stops...
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
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Bill Goldsmith
Re: Rudders and travel limits???
Thanks Dana (and Dave):
Let me try to explain the problem a little better. The rudder body is not swinging all the way around to touch the hull. Nor is the rudder exceeding its recessed groove (sounds identical to the 26). It does not even make it that far. When the rudder is turned to its limit, it seems that the whole assembly rises a bit so that the glass at the tippy top of the rudder where it meets the post touches the hull at that point only. Alot of stress at one point. That has caused some cracking and separation of the glass around the rudder post. It almost seems like the pintle is rising out of the gudgeon at the bottom of the rudder as it is it turned, causing this contact at the limit of the travel. I will inspect the pintle and gudgeon arrangement to see if the rudder is perhaps riding up on excess glass from some old repair. Maybe all I need to do is a little filing down there to keep the rudder from riding up. The rudder is dry now (I drilled a few test holes last year and repaired them before barrier coating) and I'd like to avoid problems in the future.
Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Bill Goldsmith
CD27 #173
Second Chance
goldy@bestweb.net
Let me try to explain the problem a little better. The rudder body is not swinging all the way around to touch the hull. Nor is the rudder exceeding its recessed groove (sounds identical to the 26). It does not even make it that far. When the rudder is turned to its limit, it seems that the whole assembly rises a bit so that the glass at the tippy top of the rudder where it meets the post touches the hull at that point only. Alot of stress at one point. That has caused some cracking and separation of the glass around the rudder post. It almost seems like the pintle is rising out of the gudgeon at the bottom of the rudder as it is it turned, causing this contact at the limit of the travel. I will inspect the pintle and gudgeon arrangement to see if the rudder is perhaps riding up on excess glass from some old repair. Maybe all I need to do is a little filing down there to keep the rudder from riding up. The rudder is dry now (I drilled a few test holes last year and repaired them before barrier coating) and I'd like to avoid problems in the future.
Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Bill Goldsmith
CD27 #173
Second Chance
Dana wrote:Strange...but should be consistent with other CD27 I would imagine.Mark Yashinsky wrote:
On the CD26 the SS rudder post comes down at an angle to the top leading edge. The top edge of the rudder is completely clear (and horizontally flat) with about a 3/4" spacing between the hull and top edge. The shape of the aft hull is in the shape of a Vee with a flatten horizontal surface at the rudder post exit...thus the rudder can not touch the sides of the hull except if it was possible to do about a 120 degree turn....The top edge of the rudder is straight flat.
The forward edge of the rudder, however is curved, which recesses slightly into a "matched opposite curved" section of the aft of the keel. The rudder shaft bearing tube alignment is not "perfect" but there is about a 1 inch gap from the rudder leading edge to the deepest section of the hull recess. Mine looks a little more tight as one approaches the bottom rudder "shoe" bearing. This may be an indication that tolerances of shaft bearing alignment between the cockpit sole and hull may be "off" sometimes or vary slightly based on each boat installation. The limit on the CD26 rudder turn would be the edges of the keel recess area. The rudder can be only turned about 45 to 60 degrees and for that the forward rudder section does not touch the aft keel recessed "U" ends.
I know each boat is different, perhaps especially with the CD27 with longer overhangs....but I hope it helps to compare...next is to discuss with other CD27 owner...
Was helping a friend (W. Goldsmith, CD27) do the Spring maintenence along with some other wish list projects on his boat before she goes in, and noticed cracking in the fiberglass of the rudder where the rudder post goes in to the rudder. After some investigation, it looks like this was caused be turning the rudder hard over to the limit of travel. The limit seems to be when the rudder (usually a couple of inches aft of the post) contacts the hull (the faired section of the hull right above the rudder). Pushing lightly on teh tiller or even the rudder, a little bending of the rudder post and rudder can be seen. This flexing of the rudder post is causing the rigid fiber glass to flex and crack. Does anyone know what is to limit rudder travel so as not to stress this bond between the post and fiberglass rudder??? What is the shape of the rudder fiberglass where the post comes out (maybe the shape so as another part of the rudder contacts the hull)??? Has anyone else noticed this???
goldy@bestweb.net
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Mark Yashinsky
Re: Rudders and travel limits???
One would think that the limit would be the the rudder hitting the length of the "fairing" formed by the keel conforming toe the leading edge of the rudder. The problem is, looking forward from the stern, the motion of the top of the rudder is a cone, on its side w/ the point at the rudder post. Basicly, any point on the rudder will also move up as it turns because the rudder post is at about a 20 degree angle to the rest of the boat. This upward movement can catch the hull above and put "unusual"(???) stress on the rudder and any bonding. Could this be causing the "water and corrosion in the rudder" problmes posted in the past??? Yes, the simplest solution is "dont let the rudder go hard to the limit". Oops tend to happen, though.