What kind of fuel am I?

[M. R. Bober]

Having just retrieved my 2HP Honda outboard from the repair shop, I thought I would share some information. The shop provided an "Important Notice Concerning Fuel" to all customers. The high points are, with gasoline:

Avoid mixing non-ethanol fuel with ethanol blended gasoline. Equip the boat with a good water/fuel separating (10 micron) filter.

If the fuel in your boat sits for more than 30 days without being used up and does not contain a fuel stabilizer, you are going to have problems.

Ethanol is a solvent. It will clean the fuel delivery system of oxidation, gum & varnish. These deposits will end up in your filters, if you are lucky, or in your combustion chambers, if you are not.

Fuel containing ethanol is a magnet for water. Gasoline tanks with more than .35% water are at risk of having ethanol phase separation, an alcohol/water layer at the bottom of the tank. Once this phase separation occurs engines are not able to burn the alcohol/water mixture. Properly dispose of this fuel. Do not try to run it in your engine.

Use fuel stabilizers. They are an aid, but not a cure.

Stale/contaminated fuel related repairs are not covered under any warranty.

Try to keep fuel containers out of direct sunlight.

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster (where we prefer our corn on the cob,) VA

[Oswego John]

Mitchell,

Good info. Some things I never realized.

BTW: There's no fuel like (an) old fuel.

O J

[WaywardWind]

It's a crock. I can't imagine that came from the engine wizards at Honda. Not a thing there is true, though I can imagine some local genius working for a Honda lawn mover dealership in suburban Chillicothe MO saying so.

BTW, gasoline dissolves varnish. That's why back in the days of cork carb floats the float was coated with shellac rather than varnish.

[bottomscraper]

It's a crock.

Sorry I must disagree. For many year my Dad ran a small engine shop. We recommended and used Sta-Bil for all our fuel and I still do. We had a large number of commercial landscapers who would have carburetor problems ever spring until they started using Sta-Bil. We may have lost some business when they started using it (no more spring carb rebuilds) but we more than made up for it in good will and referrals.

I have NEVER had a carburetor problem with a small engine including some like my chipper shredder that only gets used every few years. It is cheap insurance and I will continue to use it in my outboard and other small engines.


http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/default.aspx

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file ... mended.pdf

[WaywardWind]

#1, if the stuff had value, all the gasoline suppliers would add it to their product as a competitive advantage. Remember Std Oil's advertising, "My advice, sir, get DeIcer", which promoted Std Oil's addition of (ironically) ethanol to its wintertime gasoline to help prevent gasoline freeze in automobile's? In short order, all oil cos started adding ethanol to wintertime gasoline (long, long, long before the 10% ethanol of today).

#2, the United States Military specifically states in its fuel purchasing RFQ's (Request For Quote), NO favor will be given either gasoline or diesel with fuel stabilizerss added compared to fuels without. The US Military buys fuels for storage of indeterminate length for later use in what may be live fire combat situations. In essence, the Military says stabilizers have no value.

An anecdote.

#3, I personally have dumped ten-year-old gasoline taken from a stored boat into my Buick without without noticeable issue. I nearly filled the nearly empty Buick tank with the ten-year-old gasoline.

Fifty years ago I cleaned -- for money -- a LOT of outboard motor carbs each spring because the owners left fuel in the motor over the winter. The last I saw that was even remotely needed was about the early 1970's.

I don't know just actually who put together that list of do's/don'ts regarding Honda 2 hp motors, but I can't imagine Honda itself did. ("Don't add non-ethanol gas to eth gas?" Why?)

[M. R. Bober]

...

I don't know just actually who put together that list of do's/don'ts regarding Honda 2 hp motors, but I can't imagine Honda itself did. ("Don't add non-ethanol gas to eth gas?" Why?)

Because you asked, the information was provided by Brown's Marine, a Honda and Suzuki dealer.

Stihl recently replaced the engine in my string trimmer (we split the cost) because of damage done by old fuel. They are now recommending 6 weeks as a maximum storage period. OBTW: They strongly suggested the use of gasoline stabilizer (i.e. they will not cover any additional engine problems on my machine.)

You pay your money and you take your chances.

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster (where corn is sometimes flakey,) VA

[WaywardWind]

If you don't mind so very much, I'll go with the science in the debate between Brown's Honda and Suzuki vs the United States Military Procurment regarding fuel storage.

A Lucky Rabbit's foot is no less effective.

[KDreese]

Fuel stablizer is so cheap so why risk it? I didnt use it on 2002 Merc two stroke and had Allll kinds of problems last year that really screwed up my season. I got a new 4 stroke motor and use stabilizer and have had ZERO problems all season. Given all the costs involved and piece of mind that motor starts when required it seems silly not to use the stabilizer... Just my two cents.

[Oswego John]

Science, schmience.

I made an awful good living getting peoples gas powered things to start. Lawn mowers and rototillers in the spring, chain saws and snow blowers in the fall.

What was the main problem? Stale gas which caused varnish in the carb jets. It was an easy fix. I drained all the old fuel and sprayed carb cleaner in and on everything to do with the fuel system.

The morality bit was should I tell them to use fuel stabilizer next time and kill the goose that was laying golden eggs?

My lips are sealed. I'll never tell.

O J

[S/V Necessity]

"#2, the United States Military specifically states in its fuel purchasing RFQ's (Request For Quote), NO favor will be given either gasoline or diesel with fuel stabilizerss added compared to fuels without. The US Military buys fuels for storage of indeterminate length for later use in what may be live fire combat situations. In essence, the Military says stabilizers have no value. "

Setting aside the assumption that their protocol makes a damn lick of sense to begin with (we are dealing with a bureaucracy here), there are numerous other possible reasons the military wouldn't factor in the presence of fuel stabilizers in the purchasing of fuel. First thing that comes to mind: they might be particular in wanting to add their own stabilizer. To go from the above quoted statement to conclusion " the Military says stabilizers have no value." is jumping to conclusions IMO.

For what it's worth I don't use stabilizers, and I don't know if they are effective or not. But it's my experience that fuel related issues are more common now than they were in the past. Gasoline just isn't the same as it was 20 years ago, or even more. I think it's pretty sage advice to recommend draining your carbs on small engines (especially when they wont be used for several weeks) and using fresh fuel. Only using gas less then 4 months old has dramatically reduced the headaches in dealing with my weed eater and 2 stroke outboard. When in doubt I always dump the gas into my old truck and mix up fresh fuel. Perhaps it's voodoo, but it works.

[WaywardWind]

I give up.

My father taught me as a child that customers can do anything with their money they want. Including burning $100 bills in the street.

Finis.

[mahalocd36]

Setting aside the assumption that their protocol makes a damn lick of sense to begin with (we are dealing with a bureaucracy here), there are numerous other possible reasons the military wouldn't factor in the presence of fuel stabilizers in the purchasing of fuel. First thing that comes to mind: they might be particular in wanting to add their own stabilizer. To go from the above quoted statement to conclusion " the Military says stabilizers have no value." is jumping to conclusions IMO.

I have to say I thought the same thing. Just because they don't give preference to it, doesn't mean they aren't going to add their own or whatever. I was curious to see what info I could find about this, and found this webpage
http://www.fqsinc.com/ltsa-35a.php
Which I contend doesn't say that the military always uses stabilizers but clearly they have as there's a NSN # and there's a military spec for it. Seems kind of odd that they'd go to the trouble for something they'll never use. Maybe someone who actually knows by being in the military and involved with the storage of fuel will stumble upon this thread.

Then, I googled again and found this:
http://www.tpub.com/content/boats/TB-55 ... 150101.htm

Maybe that's NOT the directions to military personnel on how and when to use/add stablilizer to the fuel but that's what it appears to be to me.

[WaywardWind]

First thing, US government agencies have a dot gov in their urls. You quoted a commercial source peddling its own product.

Second thing, the opening paragraph in your first url states:

"Effective 25 September 1998, MIL-S-53021 has been declared “Inactive for New Designâ€

[mahalocd36]

This is fun. You really shouldn't take this so seriously. No one is asking you to use fuel stabilizer. Don't want to, don't.

First thing, US government agencies have a dot gov in their urls. You quoted a commercial source peddling its own product.

Of course, that was obvious. Also, gov sites have .mil
in their urls sometimes as well. See :

http://www.belvoir.army.mil/jppsowa/fil ... ingPOV.pdf
Where the military adds stabilizer to the deployed's stored vehicles.
Dated 2005. It says "as required" which implies there is at least one situation/scenario it which it's required, correct?

And this one, 2007:
http://www.bragg.army.mil/ITO/Documents ... nalSOP.pdf
Ahh..it's only "recommended" and not required.....

Second thing, the opening paragraph in your first url states:

"Effective 25 September 1998, MIL-S-53021 has been declared “Inactive for New Designâ€

[Sea Hunt]

In a separate thread a few days ago I asked about an issue with my little 6 HP/4 stroke Suzuki outboard. Recently, under load and at very low RPMs it seemed to "sputter" and be starving for fuel. One of the possible causes in my mind was the 10% ethanol being added to gasoline. From what I had read it absorbed water, caused carburetor problems, etc. Before taking apart the carburetor I made some minor idle RPM adjustments and so far it seems OK.

However, in reading this current thread I decided to contact the folks at Browns Point Marine in New Jersey about fuel additives. Browns Point Marine is one of the largest, if not the largest, Suzuki dealer, repair facility, etc. in the US. I have NO connection with them other than as described below.

I have obtained advise from these guys several times over the past year. I have also bought most of my replacement parts from them. Each person I have talked with has been unbelievably patient and helpful. Their advise and recommendations have always been right on the money. I visited with them at the Miami Boat Show this year past February. Down to earth, nice guys.

Browns Point Marine uses a product called "Startron". This is a link to an article Browns Point Marine sent me. It is in .pdf format about Startron and the effects of ethanol.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/images/ ... l101-2.pdf

I have been using Sta-Bil Marine for the past few months. I cannot say that I have observed it doing anything spectacularly good but it does not seem to hurt anything. Sort of like the STP gas and oil additives my Dad and I used to put in olds car. Neither my Dad nor I could tell if it was doing any good but it also didn't seem to hurt anything.

A question: Is there anyone who has any information that Sta-Bil Marine, Startron or similar fuel additives harm or degrade an outboard engine If not, it seems like a little added to each tank is cheap and can't hurt.

As for military requirements for fuel purchase, while I do not have any specific knowledge about fuel acquisitions, in other areas, various units will invite bids on items that the military purchases and then modifies to their own specific mission needs. In my mind (tiny as it is ), it would not be unusual to request fuel without any additives and then have one or more fuel additives added at a fuel storage depot.