New Standing Rigging CD25

[aja]

Hi guys,

We are replacing our standing rigging on aja this year. It looks fine - but we figured after 32 years, (if it is original) it is probably time.

Just wondering your opinions - with new technology available, etc., would you replace with same original specs or would you upgrade or beef it up in any way?

Thanks,
Diana

[bottomscraper]

Hi Diana,

When we changed the rigging on Mahalo we did increase the size of the upper wires. On Mahalo this was an easy change since fittings for 5/16" wire had the same size eyes and threads as the smaller 9/32" wire and the cost difference was minimal. I would not have bothered if it had required changes to the chainplates. I really think the original sizes were fine. Yours lasted 32 years right? Increasing size also adds weight aloft which is a downside thing.

We used all Sta-Lok mechanical fittings and did the work ourselves. All of the supplies came from "Rigging Only". On the boat we had before we used swaged terminals on the upper ends and Sta-Lok on the lower. You can search the archives for mechanical vs. swaged discussions.

Since you are so close to "The Rigging Loft" aka "Rigging Only" you may want to give them a call and ask their advice. All my dealings with them have been very positive.

http://www.riggingonly.com/Default.htm

My installing Sta-Lok page:

http://sailmahalo.com/picture_collectio ... ngStaloks/

Rich

[mexsailor]

When I was refurbishing my CD25, we went with what was on the boat at the time. The PO had told me that he had done everything he could to her as if it was a 35'. All rigging was oversized so I went with that. Although I got all new stays and shrouds, I didn't change the back stay as it was insulated for the SSB. It checked out o.k. by both the original surveyor and the rigging shop.
I carry it and a few others on board for emergencies.
One interesting note. After I installed my CDI roller furling, the last time I took the mast down to bring her home, I noticed the forestay had a few broken strands. A few were stretched out, also. I contacted the owner of CDI and discussed this with him. Finally, I called the place that had made them for me. I took it down and after they checked it out made a replacement for me at no charge. I suspect it wasn't the material it should have been as I saw him check it with a magnet. My other stays are fine.
I always take a magnet with me when I buy anything SS. Apparently, I forgot to take it with me when I picked up the new stays.
Surprising how many (so-called) SS bolts, nuts, fittings will attach themselves to a magnet.
I suggest checking when received.
mexsailor
CD25, "Gladys Erzella"
San Diego Bay

[drysuit2]

Why would someone want to oversize the rigging: standing, or running, on a Cape Dory?

CD's are overbuilt to begin with.

Wouldn't you be adding extra weight aloft, just where you don't want it?

I get oversizing your chainplates; to spread the load a little bit.

But if you oversize your rigging aloft you add extra unnecessary stress, and shock loads to all the attachment points on your mast, and elsewhere. Not to mention that the oversized shrouds will alter the way your mast flexes, no doubt increasing it's compression loads.

You increase the boats pitching, and heeling, motion. That can't be good; would you chop a foot off your keel?

I think that if a boats rigging has lasted for 20 plus years of use, that is a good indication that it was designed well in the first place.

[mexsailor]

I don't know all the pro's and con's of this subject in regards to a CD 25, for sure. I was just going by what the PO had told me. He had been sailing since he was a youngster and took his father's CD25 from Seattle up to Alaska where he lived on it for two years while working in the fishing industry there. Then he brought it down south, finally stopping at San Diego, because of a medical emergency.
He told me that was what he had done so I just continued the legacy. I figured if he could sail the boat the places and distances he had, it couldn't be all that bad and very possibly improved his safety overall. Obviously, if one were racing, criteria would be totally different. But for safe cruising offshore and coastal, I'd rather have the boat the way it is. Guess it all depends on one's perspective.

[drysuit2]

Mex,

I didn't mean to make it sound like my comments were directed at you. They weren't. If it seemed that way, I'm sorry.

[Carl Thunberg]

If you up-size the wire rope and you tune your rigging using a Loos Gauge, would you tension it to the old size wire or the new size wire? If you tension to the old wire, then you never develop the potential strength of the new wire. If you tension to the new wire, then you add to deck/cabin compression that CD25s are prone to. I agree with Gary. The vast majority of CD25 sailors primarily use their CD25 as a day-sailor or do some coastal cruising in sight of land. Yes, there are some exceptions out there. The PO of Mexsailor is clearly one of them. The PO used the boat hard, and for him, up-sizing was probably a prudent decision. For the rest of us, stick with the original specs for a CD25. Some times bigger is just bigger, not necessarily better.

[Neil Gordon]

>>CD's are overbuilt to begin with.<<

Frank makes a good point. Do we read about rigging and other type failures here that warrant upgrading from the original spec?

[mexsailor]

No apology is needed. I didn't take it anyway but as a valid comment and question.
Basically, I just redid what he had already done. Even though I have a Loos Gauge, I've never used it on the boat's standing rigging. I do it by feel with a helping hand to keep the mast straight.
I believe the only things he did were to oversize the standing rigging and use three anchors (Bruce, CQR and a Danforth.) All weigh to handle a 35' sailboat with 25' chain and heavy rode.
I've never had an issue with any of the items, never a slipping anchor, bent mast, loose shrouds, etc.
When the wheel for the chock broke for the jib, I couldn't locate a 3/4" replacement other than replacing the whole track and everything with a 1" track from the original 3/4". I finally found a replacement wheel so just replaced it, keeping the 3/4" track and slider. That, I felt, was the best thing to do (and less expensive, too.)
I've been in some heavy weather and seas and one time the mast fell down on an Islander 34 during a two-man race around the Mexican Coronado Islands. We left the race and stayed with them and assisted as best we could until things were secure and he was able to motor back. (Not that we were in any way really in the race, it was just a fun day.) Anyway, problems with stays can and do occur all the time so bottom line is simply that I feel a bit more secure knowing that whatever conditions I might find myself in, at least I don't concern myself as much about the rigging as I might if not a bit more heavier than normal. Actually, I don't think the size difference is all that much. As far as top side weight, etc, for my normal sailing, I seriously doubt if it makes any major disadvantages. At least none that I'm concerned about or aware of at the moment.
Hope this clears up any misconceptions or misunderstandings.
Thanks for all the imput, comments, etc.
Fair winds......
mexsailor....
sv "Gladys Erzella"
1977, CD25, Hull #541
San Diego Bay

[Steve Laume]

I always wonder about people making structural changes to our boats. Getting rid of the embedded steel chain plates might be an exception. Even these were a sound design if the boat is properly maintained to all water out.

I admire Cape Dorys because of the talented designer who conceived them. I have made all sorts of changes to adapt the boat to my personal needs but will do nothing to change the basic design. I just don't think I am more qualified than Mr. Alberg to make the complicated decisions that are involved in marine design. Like everything else in life, even wire size is a compromise. You will always trade off something for another. With that in mind I believe the original designer already leaned towards the side of safety and reliability. To go further in that direction will surely compromise something else.

I too need to look seriously at replacing my standing rigging. When I do it will be a direct replacement not a perceived upgrade. Any upgrading may in fact come in the form of Sta-Lock fittings but I will keep the wire size original.

I have already added radar reflectors and a dome at the spreaders, folding steps at the mast head and some other rigging low on the mast. Any more weight I add, I would prefer to keep low and forward.

In conditions where you might worry about the strength or your original wire size I might think windage and weight aloft would be a bigger concern. I have heard of more boats being knocked down than dismasted. I have never heard of anyone feeling the need to add depth or weight to the keel. That is probably because we all believe our boats are pretty well designed to begin with.

The snow is gone and I have Bluebirds in my lawn this morning, Steve.

[Doug Fallin]

Now that you are replacing your standing rigging, pay close attention to the chain plates. This now becomes the weak point in your system.

[aja]

Thanks for the many good points. I think we will probably stick to the original size. Haven't quite decided on swageless or not yet...

Rich, we agree with you about the Riggin Loft - they've always been great to us. However, Edson and others have recommended Bay Sailing Equipment in Fall River - as being the best rigger in the area, so I called them for a ballpark quote in December, I left my number. 2 weeks went by and no call back - the girl said, "Oh, yeah, I remember you -I've been too busy". So, I gave her another month and called her last week. She says "Oh, yeah, I remember you - we don't have the specs for that boat. I can't quote it." That was really great service.

Rigging Loft had given me a ballpark quote in about 3 minutes on the first call. We'll be keepig our business with them.

We will definitely checkout the chainplates - not the easiest thing to get to though.

Diana

[mexsailor]

I didn't think so many replies would come forth from an apparently misunderstood and innocent reply. So, in trying to comment on the various things stated, here are some observations.
Although I may be in error, I believe it was Stadler that designed the CD25, not Alberg. I don't doubt he (both) was a great boat designer in his time, however, I'm just as positive that since he designed the CD25, that many technological advances have been made in design, materials, etc. Furthermore, because of these advances I believe an owner can make any modifications he desires to his own boat. Having said that, when I stated I went oversize on the rigging, apparently some mistook this for some 1" cable or something. Actually, the increase in size was closer to 1/32nd or so of an inch. Hardly worthy of what might constitute oversized. That, plus the fact the PO had used three different anchors (Bruce, CQR and Danforth) that were to be used on a 35' boat along with 25' of heavy chain and 200' of rode would also hardly be called oversized.
I love my CD25 and have probably poured more than $14,000 into her easily since first obtaining her.
I tried to keep the boat as original as possible but it's not always easy. After two heart attacks and a stroke, I no longer found it in my best interests to get on the foredeck to change the hank on sails that came with the boat. What was I to do? I changed it and got a new CDI Roller Furler and both a new jib and mainsail. This easy modifification, and that is certainly what that is, makes it a lot easier for me to sail her. I am so glad I did this.
When I redid the old, original ice box, and added new, spaceage long lasting foam insulation, that modification now allows me to have ice on board over 4 days in the summertime. I am so glad I did this.
When the PO raised the engine hood almost 2" by installing a teak frame to allow the outboard to breathe better, that modification was welcomed I'm sure. I'm so glad he did this.
When my wife made all the cushions for the boat and covered them, she used closed cell foam for the cockpit cushions. I don't even think this was available back in 1977. I'm glad she did, though.
So, in conclusion, an old sailor friend of mine and I once figured out that the additional weight topside because of the decision to go "oversized" on the rigging (by the PO) was way less than 1/2 pound spread over 8 points and the entire boat.
The attached , large, full original mast steps probably weigh three or four times that amount or even my large radar reflector must weight nearly the same.
I've seen a CD25 with a major mod like an installation of an inboard diesel. I certainly wouldn't go that far but the owner certainly has that right to do it if he desires.
My simple mod's have been either to continue what the PO had already done, to increase the safety of the vessel or to make it easier for me to handle. I'm not trying to outdesign Stadler or Alberg or Mull or anyone else. I'm fortunate in that my chainplates are in great condition and as stated, they're checked at the once a year check-up. My stays are tightened down tightly but snug.
There are, however, some other areas I've been thinking about...
I wonder why no opening ports? Original Cost? I'm actually think of installing two in the cabin. I wonder if anyone else has actually changed their closed ports out?
I wonder why no foredeck provision for anchors? Original Cost? I wonder if anyone else had this problem and installed or made some mod in this dept.?
I wonder why they didn't have an automatic bilge pump? Original Cost? I installed mine and used an entirely new hose assembly and discharge just for it. I am glad I did that.
It didn't have a holding tank nor deck discharge for the head originally. Original Cost? I installed those items along with a macerator. This mod has proven very useful and convenient.
Friends tell me the rudder is too small and should be extended. Is this true? I have no idea but that's one mod I'm not going to get into. I'm not a boat designer.
So, in conclusion, please don't "hammer" at me for trying simple, little improvements that I feel make my vessel a bit safer, more secure and much more enjoyable to sail.
After all, aren't we all after more safety, security and enjoyment with our vessels?
Thanks.
mexsailor

[Steve Laume]

Mexsailor, I am sorry if I offended. You are doing great. I know my roller furling gear, which I forgot all about as weight and windage aloft is a much greater problem than any wire you could possibly use. Along with all the other junk up on my mast maybe I should be looking at heavier rigging.

What I should have posted was that Cape Dory rigging generally proves to be strong and dependable as originally designed. Going one size larger certainly couldn't hurt as long as you don't have to compromise tangs or chain plates to install the pins.

It's becoming a long winter now, Steve.

[winthrop fisher]

hi....
standing rigging should be replace ever 10 to 15 years.
have you ever seen a mast and rigging go over board,
i have it could kill the people on board....winthrop