I am just haulling out Searunner today and am making up my worklist for this winter.
We have noticed this season that there seems to be alot of play in the tiller and steering response. Can't say it's loose except that it feels "sloppy". There seems to be a fraction of inches of "play" before the rudder shaft moves...
Could anyone out there advise on what I need to do to make this more "rack and pinion like"..
Thanks for any guidance or advice.
Too Much Play in Typhoon Tiller
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Steve Lepley
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Jun 14th, '08, 14:46
- Location: Typhoon Weekender, Searunner, Newport
Too Much Play in Typhoon Tiller
Steve Lepley
1972 Typhoon Weekender, "Searunner"
Hull # 255
1972 Typhoon Weekender, "Searunner"
Hull # 255
Hi Steve,
If the slop can be seen between the tiller mount and the rudder post head, you can probably shim that with some nylon washers. I believe that most Cape Dory tillers were originally attached with a bronze rod that was pinged on each end after insertion. On most of the ones I have had, this rod had been replaced with a stainless bolt, but they never quite fit right. KAYLA's was this way and had a LOT of slop, but a close friend took the post head and tiller mount to his machine shop and they bored it to be a perfect fit with the next size stainless bolt. She is now much easier to helm when under motor or sailing downwind. When on the wind, her natural weather helm made the slop hardly noticeable. If you or others are interested in having this done, I will ask Dave if his shop will do more of them.
BTW, Dave's company builds parts for the manufacturing equipment used in the corrugated board processing. He also is a great sailor and owns a gorgeous Tartan 34.
-michael
If the slop can be seen between the tiller mount and the rudder post head, you can probably shim that with some nylon washers. I believe that most Cape Dory tillers were originally attached with a bronze rod that was pinged on each end after insertion. On most of the ones I have had, this rod had been replaced with a stainless bolt, but they never quite fit right. KAYLA's was this way and had a LOT of slop, but a close friend took the post head and tiller mount to his machine shop and they bored it to be a perfect fit with the next size stainless bolt. She is now much easier to helm when under motor or sailing downwind. When on the wind, her natural weather helm made the slop hardly noticeable. If you or others are interested in having this done, I will ask Dave if his shop will do more of them.
BTW, Dave's company builds parts for the manufacturing equipment used in the corrugated board processing. He also is a great sailor and owns a gorgeous Tartan 34.
-michael
-michael & Toni CDSOA #789
s/v KAYLA CD28 #318
2012 FLSTC Heritage Classic
Niceville FL
+30° 30' 24.60", -86° 26' 32.10"
"Just because it worked, doesn't mean it works." -me
No shirt + No shorts = No problem!
s/v KAYLA CD28 #318
2012 FLSTC Heritage Classic
Niceville FL
+30° 30' 24.60", -86° 26' 32.10"
"Just because it worked, doesn't mean it works." -me
No shirt + No shorts = No problem!
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Sloppy Tiller Response
Hi Steve,
As Michael mentioned, look for the action between the tiller strap and the rudder post and treat accordingly.
There should be a steel 1/4" bar that's inserted in a keyway between the tiller strap and the rudder post. This key locks the action from the tiller to the post.
Make sure that all nuts and bolts are snug and that the bolt that is threaded into the lower front of the strap is threaded all the way in. The hidden, inner end of this bolt sits inside of a dimple made in the post. This bolt prevents the strap from popping up and off of the top of the post.
You might also check that the strap is pushed down on the post full length before tightening the hardware.
Good luck,
O J
As Michael mentioned, look for the action between the tiller strap and the rudder post and treat accordingly.
There should be a steel 1/4" bar that's inserted in a keyway between the tiller strap and the rudder post. This key locks the action from the tiller to the post.
Make sure that all nuts and bolts are snug and that the bolt that is threaded into the lower front of the strap is threaded all the way in. The hidden, inner end of this bolt sits inside of a dimple made in the post. This bolt prevents the strap from popping up and off of the top of the post.
You might also check that the strap is pushed down on the post full length before tightening the hardware.
Good luck,
O J
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Ned Crockett
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Mar 7th, '08, 10:59
- Location: 1972 CD Typhoon Weekender #315, LADYBUG, Irvington, Va.
Rudder Post
Steve: My Ladybug is a 1972 Ty Weekender. I had the same problem you describe. Mine has two bolts, one for clamping the strap to the shaft, the other is located in front of the strap and the bolt when tightened goes into a hole in the shaft. This bolt, when tight, prevents slippage between the strap and shaft. I had to bore the hole in the shaft deeper to prevent play in the tiller. It is very secure now without any play. Mine may be a fairly recent adaptation by the previous owner as I do not have the 1/4" steel bar OJ describes. If you don't have the bolt in front of the strap, you may want to have one drilled and threaded and drill a hole in your shaft the same size. Good luck. Ned
"We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails."
Re: Rudder Post
Ned,Ned Crockett wrote:Steve: My Ladybug is a 1972 Ty Weekender. I had the same problem you describe. Mine has two bolts, one for clamping the strap to the shaft, the other is located in front of the strap and the bolt when tightened goes into a hole in the shaft. Mine may be a fairly recent adaptation by the previous owner as I do not have the 1/4" steel bar OJ describes. If you don't have the bolt in front of the strap, you may want to have one drilled and threaded and drill a hole in your shaft the same size. Good luck. Ned
I have the same cap and configuration you have on a 1977 TY weekender.
Ed
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Eye Opening Replys
Ned and Ed (dugout),
Thanks for your replys (ies ?). I found out something new.
I suppose that it's safe to figure that the tiller setup on the later Tys is different than that. of the earlier vintage Tys.
It appears that this is another change that was made when Cape Dory took over from Naugus Industries somewhere around 1970.
I never gave it a second thought that the tiller system also was changed. I assumed (ahem)
that it never changed. Why fix something that wasn't broke. Now I realize why only the newer Ty models seemed to be having steering problems.
Another flash of genius?
It has just occured to me that the older versions of the Ty rudder never had the problems of delamination, splitting in half or dropping completely off the rudder post at the most inopportune moment.
The newer version of the rudder blade is a fiberglass sandwich made of two halves that could split in half. The older blades were made of solid wood, usually three sections securely blind fastened with silicon bronze or everdur nuts and very long machine screws.
Life is a learning process and I'm just now starting to get into my groove. I have a feeling it's gonna be a long haul.
O J
Thanks for your replys (ies ?). I found out something new.
I suppose that it's safe to figure that the tiller setup on the later Tys is different than that. of the earlier vintage Tys.
It appears that this is another change that was made when Cape Dory took over from Naugus Industries somewhere around 1970.
I never gave it a second thought that the tiller system also was changed. I assumed (ahem)
that it never changed. Why fix something that wasn't broke. Now I realize why only the newer Ty models seemed to be having steering problems.Another flash of genius?
It has just occured to me that the older versions of the Ty rudder never had the problems of delamination, splitting in half or dropping completely off the rudder post at the most inopportune moment.The newer version of the rudder blade is a fiberglass sandwich made of two halves that could split in half. The older blades were made of solid wood, usually three sections securely blind fastened with silicon bronze or everdur nuts and very long machine screws.
Life is a learning process and I'm just now starting to get into my groove. I have a feeling it's gonna be a long haul.
O J
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Ty Tiller
Dugout,
This is in addition to what I wrote earlier in regard to the Ty's tiller attachment to the rudder post.
After thinking about the different methods of attachment, I just walked in from the shop, where I took a long, hard look at your rudder post.
Yes, I now see the newer method that Cape Dory went to. Where the pre 1970 models had the keyway cut into the post and the tiller cap, the later models had a flat filed or milled into the upper front edge of the post. I can see where the threaded cap screw passed through the cap and seated itself into the flat on the post.
It's not for me to say if this newer method is an improvement or not. It certainly did eliminate the machining of the keyways and cutting the keys. $$$ Every little bit helped I guess. I personally think that the use of a bar key is a more positive way to avoid some of the problems of slop that have arisen since Cape Dory adopted the new method of an attachment as an "Improvement".
So I stand corrected and now realize what the newer tiller setups are like. It behooves Ty owners to keep checking on the tightness of the tiller hardware. If that capscrew in the front of the tiller cap becomes loose enough, the tiller could swing around the post and all steering could be lost.
O J
This is in addition to what I wrote earlier in regard to the Ty's tiller attachment to the rudder post.
After thinking about the different methods of attachment, I just walked in from the shop, where I took a long, hard look at your rudder post.
Yes, I now see the newer method that Cape Dory went to. Where the pre 1970 models had the keyway cut into the post and the tiller cap, the later models had a flat filed or milled into the upper front edge of the post. I can see where the threaded cap screw passed through the cap and seated itself into the flat on the post.
It's not for me to say if this newer method is an improvement or not. It certainly did eliminate the machining of the keyways and cutting the keys. $$$ Every little bit helped I guess. I personally think that the use of a bar key is a more positive way to avoid some of the problems of slop that have arisen since Cape Dory adopted the new method of an attachment as an "Improvement".
So I stand corrected and now realize what the newer tiller setups are like. It behooves Ty owners to keep checking on the tightness of the tiller hardware. If that capscrew in the front of the tiller cap becomes loose enough, the tiller could swing around the post and all steering could be lost.
O J
OJ,
Heck, I don't see any need for you to "stand corrected". CD clearly changed the way they indexed and secured the Cap with the Post on the later models but no one knows exactly when, right? The key and keyway sure seem to be a better deal to me as well. After seeing what was there when i took it apart, I had planed on giving the end of the cap screw a little male truncated cone shape and planned to cut a matching female shape into the post when it goes back in, maybe 1/16th to 1/8th deep. Just enough for a good positive bite in the tapper and more than mere pressure of the cap screw pressing on the flat. A little silicone on the cap screw threads and the cone mating should keep it from working loose, don't you think?
As usual, You may have a better idea so please speak up if and when. I will be the first to admit you have probably forgotten more about these boats than I know.
Ed
Heck, I don't see any need for you to "stand corrected". CD clearly changed the way they indexed and secured the Cap with the Post on the later models but no one knows exactly when, right? The key and keyway sure seem to be a better deal to me as well. After seeing what was there when i took it apart, I had planed on giving the end of the cap screw a little male truncated cone shape and planned to cut a matching female shape into the post when it goes back in, maybe 1/16th to 1/8th deep. Just enough for a good positive bite in the tapper and more than mere pressure of the cap screw pressing on the flat. A little silicone on the cap screw threads and the cone mating should keep it from working loose, don't you think?
As usual, You may have a better idea so please speak up if and when. I will be the first to admit you have probably forgotten more about these boats than I know.
Ed
Wouldn't that set screw be an ideal place to put a dab of Loc-tite?
If not, please explain why.
Thanks,
-michael
If not, please explain why.
Thanks,
-michael
-michael & Toni CDSOA #789
s/v KAYLA CD28 #318
2012 FLSTC Heritage Classic
Niceville FL
+30° 30' 24.60", -86° 26' 32.10"
"Just because it worked, doesn't mean it works." -me
No shirt + No shorts = No problem!
s/v KAYLA CD28 #318
2012 FLSTC Heritage Classic
Niceville FL
+30° 30' 24.60", -86° 26' 32.10"
"Just because it worked, doesn't mean it works." -me
No shirt + No shorts = No problem!
-
Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Silicon, Loc-tite, etc.
Hi Michael,
Yes, I have to agree with you and dugout. Loc-tite or silicon would work. Anything along those lines, whatever it takes to keep the cap screw from working loose.
Several times earlier, I have mentioned a "dimple" in the upper, forward face of the rudder post. This is in agreement with what dugout proposes to do. My posts look like a 1/4" drill bit was used to create a shallow crater in the post. When the tiller is aligned with the rudder blade, the cap screw will seat itself in the crater and will maintain perfect alignment.
Take care,
O J
Yes, I have to agree with you and dugout. Loc-tite or silicon would work. Anything along those lines, whatever it takes to keep the cap screw from working loose.
Several times earlier, I have mentioned a "dimple" in the upper, forward face of the rudder post. This is in agreement with what dugout proposes to do. My posts look like a 1/4" drill bit was used to create a shallow crater in the post. When the tiller is aligned with the rudder blade, the cap screw will seat itself in the crater and will maintain perfect alignment.
Take care,
O J