HI all,
Has anyone tried to paint the aluminum spars on a CD 25 or similar boat. Is this a good idea? Is it a significant aesthetic improvement? Am I nuts to be considering doing this myself?
E
woodman_eric@emc.com
paintin/awlgripping spars
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ed Rant
Re: painting/awlgripping spars
Eric:eric wrote: Has anyone tried to paint the aluminum spars on a CD 25 or similar boat.
I painted the spars on my CD-27 with an Awlgrip-like two-part linear polyurethane paint about two years ago and it worked out fine. I used an aluminum color and it looks like the original anodizing. You have to use the proper etching type primer first and be very careful to protect yourself with a good mask if you spray it as I did. This stuff is bad news when sprayed. Some manufacturers make a brushable type LPU paint also. Neither kind is cheap. Good luck.
Ed Rant
cd27@txdirect.net
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John R.
Re: paintin/awlgripping spars
Linear polyurethane finishes ie: Awlgrip, Imron, Porter, Sterling et al, can be deadly when sprayed so you better obtain a copy of the MSD's (material safety data sheet's) before you do anything.eric wrote: HI all,
Has anyone tried to paint the aluminum spars on a CD 25 or similar boat. Is this a good idea? Is it a significant aesthetic improvement? Am I nuts to be considering doing this myself?
E
Usually these finishes should only be applied by professionals with the proper respiratory protection equipment. Some use oxygen generated safety gear and full protection suits when spraying. A basic respirator will not be adequate. The manufacturers require specific filtering cartridges. I believe the isocyanates present in the paint are the big problem. Of course the catalysts and solvents aren't to healthy either. These finishes aren't to be taken lightly. Don't confuse a linear polyurethane like Awlgrip with a single part polyurethane like Interlux Brightsides, a totally different product.
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Ed Rant
Re: painting/awlgripping spars
John is absolutely right. If you don't have access to the proper safety equipment don't even consider spraying linear polyurethanes. I know of at least one man who has suffered permanent systemic damage from years of spraying Corvettes with Imron-type paints and not using the correct safety gear. The isocyanates contained in these paints are released into the air when sprayed and will do your health no good. Fortunately, this is not the case when these paints are applied by brush or roller. Awlgrip, Interlux and Sterling and possibly others all offer their LPUs in a brushable formulation. I've used both spray and brushable types and if properly applied (rolled on and tipped off with a brush) it's hard to tell the difference between the two. If you decide to use an LPU paint, stick with the brushable type or at least just do the prep work and let a professional do the spraying. For durability and gloss retention LPU paints are hard to beat.eric wrote: Am I nuts to be considering doing this myself?
Ed
cd27@txdirect.net
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Don Carr
Re: Need input on AWLGRIP
Ed;
You seem knowledgeable on AWLGRIP. There seems to be an aura of "Don't attempt this at home- these are trained professionals' around AWLGRIP. My question is this, after reading Don Casey it seems that the brushable AWLGRIP is not as intimidating as one would be lead to beleive..is this true? I just got a qoute of $175/ft for hull AWLGRIP..at that price I can paint the hull myself.. I think. would love to hear from someone who has personally done the job his/her self.. need to get the skinny on the gotcha's.
carrd48@netzero.net
You seem knowledgeable on AWLGRIP. There seems to be an aura of "Don't attempt this at home- these are trained professionals' around AWLGRIP. My question is this, after reading Don Casey it seems that the brushable AWLGRIP is not as intimidating as one would be lead to beleive..is this true? I just got a qoute of $175/ft for hull AWLGRIP..at that price I can paint the hull myself.. I think. would love to hear from someone who has personally done the job his/her self.. need to get the skinny on the gotcha's.
carrd48@netzero.net
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John R.
Re: Need input on AWLGRIP
Don,Don Carr wrote: Ed;
You seem knowledgeable on AWLGRIP. There seems to be an aura of "Don't attempt this at home- these are trained professionals' around AWLGRIP. My question is this, after reading Don Casey it seems that the brushable AWLGRIP is not as intimidating as one would be lead to beleive..is this true? I just got a qoute of $175/ft for hull AWLGRIP..at that price I can paint the hull myself.. I think. would love to hear from someone who has personally done the job his/her self.. need to get the skinny on the gotcha's.
You can apply any LPU by roller/brush method and avoid the spraying hazards of atomizing the cyanates. You will still have to deal with the vapors however, but a high quality Binks, 3M or other pro respirator will work fine for that problem. Just make sure the filters in it are classified to filter out the vapors you will be working with. I suggest you contact Dupont (Imron) or U.S. Paint (Awlgrip) for specific safety information. The trickiest part is the mixing ratios for the conditions you are working in, temperature, humidity. Otherwise the prep work is everything.
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Ed Rant
Re: Need input on AWLGRIP
Don:Don Carr wrote: .. need to get the skinny on the gotcha's.
I'm certainly no expert on LPUs but one thing I can tell you about painting with them is they are extreemely thin bodied and your prep work has to be nearly flawless if you want to end up with a good finish as they'll show every surface imperfection. Interlux, US Paint and others offer pretty detailed instructional literature on the use of their products. You might check with them. Good luck.
Ed
cd27@txdirect.net
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john vigor
Re: Painting with LPU
Eric: You are not nuts to consider painting with LPU. I have painted the topsides, cabintops, decks and aluminum spars of two boats with LPU--a C&C 28, and a Santana 22. Both boats were outside in the open at the time, and the Santana was done here in the Pacific Northwest.
The process was described in Sail and various other magazines for which I write, but briefly let me say that I did all the work on my own with a brush only--I do not subscribe to the roller-and-brush brigade because a roller is a really crude instrument with which to apply paint, and if you (or a partner)are going to have to use a paintbrush to flatten out the poppled surface it leaves, you might as well do the whole thing with a paintbrush.
I used Interlux products because they make a special, brushable LPU called Interthane Plus, designed for amateurs.
If you are doing spars only, and you can get them inside where there is no wind, and there is a temperature of 60°F to 70°F, it's a piece of cake. You need to sand the aluminum until it's bright and then coat it with an acid-etch primer and a metal primer: both these are incorporated in one pot in Interlux's Viny-Lux Primewash 353/354.
Then you simply apply two coats of Interthane Plus two-part polyurethane LPU in the color of your choice.
There is a lot of misinformation put out about amateurs and LPU, in the same way that professional navigators made celestial navigation seem so difficult until Mary Blewitt came along and told us all how to do it in 80 pages with big print and little diagrams.
Interlux provides you with all the information you need. The instructions are very clear and explicit. There is no need to be scared--the only thing that will raise the hairs on the back of your neck is the price of the stuff. But consider the advantages of never having to paint again, and consider the price of having it done professionally.
I can offer two valuable tips from my experience:
* If you're doing topsides, it's necessary to maintain a wet edge so you can keep fairing in the new paint. I do this by painting from right to left (I'm a right-hander) in vertical strips. I paint from the gunwale down to the waterline, and the strip is between 12 inches and 18 inches wide, depending on how quickly the paint is "setting up." If it's setting up quickly, the strip must be slightly narrower, so I can get the adjacent stip on while the edge of the first one is still tacky enough to allow the new paint to meld smoothly with the old paint. It just needs a bit of practice, preferably on a dinghy or your transom.
* LPU comes as a base (resin with colorant) and a reactor that starts the setting process. That process is very slow, and while it can be slowed down by cooling the mixture or excluding air, it can't be stopped once it's started. The instructions say the mixture will remain brushable for 8 hours under "average" conditions. But here's the point--the base is supplied much thicker than you need because of the various temperatures in which people are going to use the stuff, so you have to thin it appropriately after you've mixed in the reactor. What you need is just enough thinner to let the paint smooth itself out and eradicate brushmarks without causing runs or "curtains." If it's too thin, it will run, if it's too thick, you'll be left with brush marks. So what's an "appropriate" amount of thinner? Here's how you find out: get a fair-sized piece of window glass and place it in the area where you're going to paint. Leave it for half an hour, so it gets to air temperature. Then make up your resin/reactor mix, and thin it with the minimum thinner recommended--the range is 25 percent to 40 percent, and you'll find all this a lot easier if you measure out the paint and reactor and thinner with the same spoon. Now paint some of your mix onto the glass. If it's too thick and doesn't spread nicely, add a small amount of thinner. Keep adding thinner in tiny amounts until the brush marks disappear, but no running occurs. Now you're free to go.
As you proceed, the mixture will thicken, so every 20 minutes or so you may need to add a little thinner to your pot.
Apart from that, the ordinary rules of brush painting apply--don't paint in hot sun or too near dusk.
The results of painting with LPU are very pleasing, and the only things you have to watch out for after that are never to shrink-wrap the hull or spars (for some reason, LPU will bubble if you exclude air from it--one boat even bubbled after sailing on one tack in the tradewinds with the topsides submerged for two weeks).
Incidentally, if you're using white LPU, take the opportunity to coat all your plastic ventilator cowls, winch-handle holders, and rubrails. They'll look better than new and last forever.
Cheers,
John Vigor
jvig@whidbey.net
The process was described in Sail and various other magazines for which I write, but briefly let me say that I did all the work on my own with a brush only--I do not subscribe to the roller-and-brush brigade because a roller is a really crude instrument with which to apply paint, and if you (or a partner)are going to have to use a paintbrush to flatten out the poppled surface it leaves, you might as well do the whole thing with a paintbrush.
I used Interlux products because they make a special, brushable LPU called Interthane Plus, designed for amateurs.
If you are doing spars only, and you can get them inside where there is no wind, and there is a temperature of 60°F to 70°F, it's a piece of cake. You need to sand the aluminum until it's bright and then coat it with an acid-etch primer and a metal primer: both these are incorporated in one pot in Interlux's Viny-Lux Primewash 353/354.
Then you simply apply two coats of Interthane Plus two-part polyurethane LPU in the color of your choice.
There is a lot of misinformation put out about amateurs and LPU, in the same way that professional navigators made celestial navigation seem so difficult until Mary Blewitt came along and told us all how to do it in 80 pages with big print and little diagrams.
Interlux provides you with all the information you need. The instructions are very clear and explicit. There is no need to be scared--the only thing that will raise the hairs on the back of your neck is the price of the stuff. But consider the advantages of never having to paint again, and consider the price of having it done professionally.
I can offer two valuable tips from my experience:
* If you're doing topsides, it's necessary to maintain a wet edge so you can keep fairing in the new paint. I do this by painting from right to left (I'm a right-hander) in vertical strips. I paint from the gunwale down to the waterline, and the strip is between 12 inches and 18 inches wide, depending on how quickly the paint is "setting up." If it's setting up quickly, the strip must be slightly narrower, so I can get the adjacent stip on while the edge of the first one is still tacky enough to allow the new paint to meld smoothly with the old paint. It just needs a bit of practice, preferably on a dinghy or your transom.
* LPU comes as a base (resin with colorant) and a reactor that starts the setting process. That process is very slow, and while it can be slowed down by cooling the mixture or excluding air, it can't be stopped once it's started. The instructions say the mixture will remain brushable for 8 hours under "average" conditions. But here's the point--the base is supplied much thicker than you need because of the various temperatures in which people are going to use the stuff, so you have to thin it appropriately after you've mixed in the reactor. What you need is just enough thinner to let the paint smooth itself out and eradicate brushmarks without causing runs or "curtains." If it's too thin, it will run, if it's too thick, you'll be left with brush marks. So what's an "appropriate" amount of thinner? Here's how you find out: get a fair-sized piece of window glass and place it in the area where you're going to paint. Leave it for half an hour, so it gets to air temperature. Then make up your resin/reactor mix, and thin it with the minimum thinner recommended--the range is 25 percent to 40 percent, and you'll find all this a lot easier if you measure out the paint and reactor and thinner with the same spoon. Now paint some of your mix onto the glass. If it's too thick and doesn't spread nicely, add a small amount of thinner. Keep adding thinner in tiny amounts until the brush marks disappear, but no running occurs. Now you're free to go.
As you proceed, the mixture will thicken, so every 20 minutes or so you may need to add a little thinner to your pot.
Apart from that, the ordinary rules of brush painting apply--don't paint in hot sun or too near dusk.
The results of painting with LPU are very pleasing, and the only things you have to watch out for after that are never to shrink-wrap the hull or spars (for some reason, LPU will bubble if you exclude air from it--one boat even bubbled after sailing on one tack in the tradewinds with the topsides submerged for two weeks).
Incidentally, if you're using white LPU, take the opportunity to coat all your plastic ventilator cowls, winch-handle holders, and rubrails. They'll look better than new and last forever.
Cheers,
John Vigor
jvig@whidbey.net
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Don Carr
Thanks for the shared experience
John;
Thanks for the excellent shared experience. Is the Inetrlux product roughly equivalent to the AWLGRIP? Based upon what you've said they are both in the LPU catagory..although I'm not an expert the AWLGRIP is 2 part. From what I gather, the prep is evrything.
carrd48@netzero.net
Thanks for the excellent shared experience. Is the Inetrlux product roughly equivalent to the AWLGRIP? Based upon what you've said they are both in the LPU catagory..although I'm not an expert the AWLGRIP is 2 part. From what I gather, the prep is evrything.
carrd48@netzero.net
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john vigor
Re: Thanks for the shared experience
Don, preparation is a large part of the job, but not quite everything.
But if your gelcoat is in good condition, you need only wipe it with solvent, sand it gently until the shininess disappears, and lay on your LPU.
I suggest you get hold of Don Casey's book, This Old Boat, which explains this business in great detail for absolute amateurs. That book, together with Interlux's detailed instructions, which come with the paint, are all you need for a confident start.
Both Interlux and Awlgrip are two-part polyurethanes, or linear polyurethanes (LPUs), but Awlgrip is usually applied in spray form by professionals, whereas Interlux has made a more user-friendly, brushable variety for amateurs. Spraying the stuff is very dangerous, but brushing is safe provided you take reasonable precautions.
There's no need for the fear of LPU I often come across. I'm a writer, not a painter, and if I can paint successfully with LPU, anybody can. As long as it's white. White is the one color that hides your LPU mistakes. Darker colors magnify them, unless you really are an expert brusher.
Cheers,
John V.
jvig@whidbey.net
But if your gelcoat is in good condition, you need only wipe it with solvent, sand it gently until the shininess disappears, and lay on your LPU.
I suggest you get hold of Don Casey's book, This Old Boat, which explains this business in great detail for absolute amateurs. That book, together with Interlux's detailed instructions, which come with the paint, are all you need for a confident start.
Both Interlux and Awlgrip are two-part polyurethanes, or linear polyurethanes (LPUs), but Awlgrip is usually applied in spray form by professionals, whereas Interlux has made a more user-friendly, brushable variety for amateurs. Spraying the stuff is very dangerous, but brushing is safe provided you take reasonable precautions.
There's no need for the fear of LPU I often come across. I'm a writer, not a painter, and if I can paint successfully with LPU, anybody can. As long as it's white. White is the one color that hides your LPU mistakes. Darker colors magnify them, unless you really are an expert brusher.
Cheers,
John V.
jvig@whidbey.net