I have a 6 gallon Atlantic Marine water heater mounted in the aft section of the port locker just below the cockpit seat that was never plumbed to the engine on our CD33. When we purchased the boat we had the heater plumbed to run off the fresh water cooling system off the westerbeke 27a. This set up for some reason has not worked as we only get hot water when hooked up to 110v which has limited us to only have hot water the first night out. Any thoughts on what might be wrong? I had the system looked at recently during engine sevice and the mechanic thought the problem may be that the themostat on the engine is set too high to open up and start the flow of water and second that the unit is above the engine so proper flow is not occuring. It appears to me that if that this should not be the cause since the system is closed (and has been blead for air)and would build up adequate pressure and heat after motoring for an hour. Any thougts?
Thanks
larry mace
lmace@gt.com
water heater question
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Tom
Re: water heater question
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Water haters are pretty simple. All you have inside is a coil of pipe. The engine coolant comes in one end circulates through the pipe and makes the pipe hot which heats the water that surrounds it. The coolant pump on your engine (not the raw water pump) circulates the coolant through the heat exhanger and water heater. If the water isn't heating up then somehow the hot coolant is not being circulated through the coil of pipe inside. The water heater is usually attached at the heat exchanger. Go to the heat exchanger and make sure it is hot, then check the hose from there to the water heater, then check the hose coming out of the water heater. Somewhere there will be a hose that is not getting hot coolant. This will locate the blockage for you. It's usually an air block in the heater itself. Good luck and let us know.
BTW when it working right and you shut down at night, the water will still be a little warm the next morning. It holds the heat for many hours. Hot enough for a shower after dinner and still tepid in the AM
TomCambria@mindspring.com
Larry, I doubt that it's a thermostat problem. If the engine heats up enough to show temperature on your water temperature gauge it's hot enough to heat your water. If you have an expansion tank also in that locker as most of us do, put your hand on the tank after the engine has warmed up. If it feels hot but not so hot you can't hold you hand on it it's plenty hot enough to heat your water. My first guess would be that you've got an air bubble in your tank. Usually this causes the engine to overheat though. Do both of the big black hoses that run to the heater feel hot? If only the in side is hot you've got an air bubble or blockage in the tank most likely. Both the in and out hoses should feel warm. When the heater is above the engine like that they are very prone to getting air bubbles in the top. Sometimes you have to bleed them a half dozen times before yu can get it out. The usual bleeding of just taking off the bottom hose and letting coolant run out will not work. There are some earlier postings on this. I usualy blow into the hose but others have posted that you can clear it by goosing the engine. When you have an air bubble typically the engine runs fine for 10 or 15 minutes and the expansion tank stays cool, then the thermostat opens and the expansion tank suddenly gets warm and the engine temperature runs up until it overheats.I have a 6 gallon Atlantic Marine water heater mounted in the aft section of the port locker just below the cockpit seat that was never plumbed to the engine on our CD33. When we purchased the boat we had the heater plumbed to run off the fresh water cooling system off the westerbeke 27a. This set up for some reason has not worked as we only get hot water when hooked up to 110v which has limited us to only have hot water the first night out. Any thoughts on what might be wrong? I had the system looked at recently during engine sevice and the mechanic thought the problem may be that the themostat on the engine is set too high to open up and start the flow of water and second that the unit is above the engine so proper flow is not occuring. It appears to me that if that this should not be the cause since the system is closed (and has been blead for air)and would build up adequate pressure and heat after motoring for an hour. Any thougts?
Thanks
larry mace
Water haters are pretty simple. All you have inside is a coil of pipe. The engine coolant comes in one end circulates through the pipe and makes the pipe hot which heats the water that surrounds it. The coolant pump on your engine (not the raw water pump) circulates the coolant through the heat exhanger and water heater. If the water isn't heating up then somehow the hot coolant is not being circulated through the coil of pipe inside. The water heater is usually attached at the heat exchanger. Go to the heat exchanger and make sure it is hot, then check the hose from there to the water heater, then check the hose coming out of the water heater. Somewhere there will be a hose that is not getting hot coolant. This will locate the blockage for you. It's usually an air block in the heater itself. Good luck and let us know.
BTW when it working right and you shut down at night, the water will still be a little warm the next morning. It holds the heat for many hours. Hot enough for a shower after dinner and still tepid in the AM
TomCambria@mindspring.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Tom's got it right....also...
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Larry,
Tom's response should lead you to the solution, but some other things you might check. First, there should be a "surge" tank very close to the water heater and just slightly above the upper or outlet hose from the water tank. The surge tank I just installed on Hanalei is made by a company called Sen-Dure Products, Inc. of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. (954)973-1260 contact Ron Schaper. It is expensive, but very well made and will eliminate any airblock problems. You HAVE to have one! Second, the hoses from the engine should come from the thermostat outlet, to the water heater(bottom connector), to the surge tank and return to the engine at the water pump inlet. The water pump circulates hot water through the engine heat exchanger and then through the engine, ie. cooler water is pumped to the engine! If it's hooked up differently than that, something was done wrong. I've got a diagram of the hook up around somewhere, and if you need it I could fax it to ya.
Actually, if the water heater is not heating the water when you are under power, I am surprised that the engine is not overheating. All of the coolant water should be going through the water heater, if it doesn't, ya have a airblock, and the engine should overheat!
My heater is also an Atlantic T6E, and it works just fine. It will easily heat 6 gallons in about 30 - 45 minutes at 2200 rpm. Engine coolant temp never exceeds 160 - 170 degrees and the water in the heater will still be warm in the A.M.!
Hey, one other possibility! If you thermostat is stuck open, the engine may not be heating up! Not only will you not get hot domestic water, but the engine will not be operating properly. so, if everything else checks out, check the thermostat, or just replace it! That might be the cheapest fix!
Let us know how you make out....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
Larry,
Tom's response should lead you to the solution, but some other things you might check. First, there should be a "surge" tank very close to the water heater and just slightly above the upper or outlet hose from the water tank. The surge tank I just installed on Hanalei is made by a company called Sen-Dure Products, Inc. of Ft. Lauderdale, FL. (954)973-1260 contact Ron Schaper. It is expensive, but very well made and will eliminate any airblock problems. You HAVE to have one! Second, the hoses from the engine should come from the thermostat outlet, to the water heater(bottom connector), to the surge tank and return to the engine at the water pump inlet. The water pump circulates hot water through the engine heat exchanger and then through the engine, ie. cooler water is pumped to the engine! If it's hooked up differently than that, something was done wrong. I've got a diagram of the hook up around somewhere, and if you need it I could fax it to ya.
Actually, if the water heater is not heating the water when you are under power, I am surprised that the engine is not overheating. All of the coolant water should be going through the water heater, if it doesn't, ya have a airblock, and the engine should overheat!
My heater is also an Atlantic T6E, and it works just fine. It will easily heat 6 gallons in about 30 - 45 minutes at 2200 rpm. Engine coolant temp never exceeds 160 - 170 degrees and the water in the heater will still be warm in the A.M.!
Hey, one other possibility! If you thermostat is stuck open, the engine may not be heating up! Not only will you not get hot domestic water, but the engine will not be operating properly. so, if everything else checks out, check the thermostat, or just replace it! That might be the cheapest fix!
Let us know how you make out....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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larry
Re: diagram
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Dave,
Thanks to you and Tom-this should help me this weekend when I get to the boat. I think the diagram would help me out if you find it,my fax number is 775.786.7091. I did not notice any performence issues while motoring nor did I notice the engine overheating. I am wondering if the whole thing is hooked up backwards.
Thanks
Larry
lmace@gt.com
Dave,
Thanks to you and Tom-this should help me this weekend when I get to the boat. I think the diagram would help me out if you find it,my fax number is 775.786.7091. I did not notice any performence issues while motoring nor did I notice the engine overheating. I am wondering if the whole thing is hooked up backwards.
Thanks
Larry
lmace@gt.com
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Larry Austin
Re: water heater question
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Larry, I had the same problem with my 30 mkII ..the water got hot on shore power but only (maybe ) warm when under power. I have a westerbeke 21 the two hoses from the hot water heater tap off an aluminun "T" (actully a double "TT" ) inside this "T" between the two "T"'s is a bimetal flipper thing that when gets hot from the water expands blocking most of the straight thru part of the "T" and diverts
more hot water into the hose up to the hot water heater back down to the other side of the "flipper" thing and on to the engine. The flippper on mine was weak, loose etc, so i called westerbeke to order a new one and the service guy told me he has heard of some boat owners putting in a freeze plung in the sraight thru part of the "T" between the 2 "T" to force all the water up to the hot water heater back down the other side and into the engine. now, the straight thru part of this "T" is larger at one end than the other, so if you get a freeze plug ( the plug saids Dorman 555-020 on it) (i got 2) put it in the wider opening tap it down and it will lock right between the 2 "TT"'s
i hot water buy the time i'm out of the marina (about 15min) and my engine runs fine...no hotter..maybe even cooler.
hope this makes sense !!
Cheers
Larry Austin
CD 30 MKII LAYLA
laustin@us.ibm.com
Larry, I had the same problem with my 30 mkII ..the water got hot on shore power but only (maybe ) warm when under power. I have a westerbeke 21 the two hoses from the hot water heater tap off an aluminun "T" (actully a double "TT" ) inside this "T" between the two "T"'s is a bimetal flipper thing that when gets hot from the water expands blocking most of the straight thru part of the "T" and diverts
more hot water into the hose up to the hot water heater back down to the other side of the "flipper" thing and on to the engine. The flippper on mine was weak, loose etc, so i called westerbeke to order a new one and the service guy told me he has heard of some boat owners putting in a freeze plung in the sraight thru part of the "T" between the 2 "T" to force all the water up to the hot water heater back down the other side and into the engine. now, the straight thru part of this "T" is larger at one end than the other, so if you get a freeze plug ( the plug saids Dorman 555-020 on it) (i got 2) put it in the wider opening tap it down and it will lock right between the 2 "TT"'s
i hot water buy the time i'm out of the marina (about 15min) and my engine runs fine...no hotter..maybe even cooler.
hope this makes sense !!
Cheers
Larry Austin
CD 30 MKII LAYLA
laustin@us.ibm.com
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Larry Austin
Re: water heater question
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By the way , the wider opening of the straight thru part of the "TT" is on the waterpump side so the freeze plug will never loosen and go anywhere , if anything it will get tighter inside the aluminun housing
laustin@us.ibm.com
By the way , the wider opening of the straight thru part of the "TT" is on the waterpump side so the freeze plug will never loosen and go anywhere , if anything it will get tighter inside the aluminun housing
Larry Austin
CD 30 MKII LAYLA
laustin@us.ibm.com
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John R.
Re: water heater question
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As Tom has stated check the hoses for warmth. I would bet on a heat exchanger blockage in the water heater. If so you will need to remove it and back flow it to clear the blockage if possible. Use air pressure as well in combo with fluid to try and clear any blockage. If it won't clear you'll probably need a replacment exchanger from Atlantic. I doubt an air lock because of normal engine temps.I have a 6 gallon Atlantic Marine water heater mounted in the aft section of the port locker just below the cockpit seat that was never plumbed to the engine on our CD33. When we purchased the boat we had the heater plumbed to run off the fresh water cooling system off the westerbeke 27a. This set up for some reason has not worked as we only get hot water when hooked up to 110v which has limited us to only have hot water the first night out. Any thoughts on what might be wrong? I had the system looked at recently during engine sevice and the mechanic thought the problem may be that the themostat on the engine is set too high to open up and start the flow of water and second that the unit is above the engine so proper flow is not occuring. It appears to me that if that this should not be the cause since the system is closed (and has been blead for air)and would build up adequate pressure and heat after motoring for an hour. Any thougts?
Thanks
larry mace
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Larry has a good point....
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When I was about to install the T6E in Hanalei, I got a diagram from Atlantic that showed a valve between two tees. The idea of the valve was to adjust the diverted water flow to the water heater. To adjust it, you would first open the valve completely, allow the engine to reach operating temp, and slowly close the valve diverting water to the heater until the engine water temp just started to increase. the valve was not necessary for my installlation, but if you had a "hot" engine, it would allow you to adjust the flow to maintain proper engine temp. The "flipper thing" Larry describes sounds like the same thing. I'll look for the diagram tonight, but will not be back to my computer until Monday morning. Oh, call Atlantic directly, they may be able to fax it to you quicker!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
When I was about to install the T6E in Hanalei, I got a diagram from Atlantic that showed a valve between two tees. The idea of the valve was to adjust the diverted water flow to the water heater. To adjust it, you would first open the valve completely, allow the engine to reach operating temp, and slowly close the valve diverting water to the heater until the engine water temp just started to increase. the valve was not necessary for my installlation, but if you had a "hot" engine, it would allow you to adjust the flow to maintain proper engine temp. The "flipper thing" Larry describes sounds like the same thing. I'll look for the diagram tonight, but will not be back to my computer until Monday morning. Oh, call Atlantic directly, they may be able to fax it to you quicker!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
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Russell
Dumb question ..
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Why does it matter -- to the engine -- how much water goes through the water heater? As long as it all gets back TO the engine, via the heat exchange, I would think the engine would not care.
Why does it matter -- to the engine -- how much water goes through the water heater? As long as it all gets back TO the engine, via the heat exchange, I would think the engine would not care.
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Tom
Re: Dumb question ..
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TomCambria@mindspring.com
Russell, This is not a dumb question. I think you are correct. If anything, hot coolant going through the water heater and giving up some of it's heat to heat the water would cool the coolant and make the engine run cooler. Some raw water cooled engines (Atomic 4) have these choke valves to insure that the engine runs hot enough because the raw water can be too cold. With a closed system of coolant if it gets too cold the thermostat closes down and warms the coolant back up. Maybe I'm missing something here?Why does it matter -- to the engine -- how much water goes through the water heater? As long as it all gets back TO the engine, via the heat exchange, I would think the engine would not care.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
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Larry Austin
Re: Dumb question ..
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Not a dump question at all...my thinking was the same "what does it matter to the engine"
Dave, sounds like adjusting the (manual) valve between the 2 TT's on your boat is the same setup that was on mine. but they tried to make mine an automatic valve that would "sense" when the engine coolant got hot
and the piece of bimetal (flipper thing!) would start to rise blocking most of the flow and diverting it into the 1st "T" up to the water heater. well mine never rose (flipper thing) and the water took the path of least resistance straight though to the engine bypassing the water heater.
laustin@us.ibm.com
Not a dump question at all...my thinking was the same "what does it matter to the engine"
Dave, sounds like adjusting the (manual) valve between the 2 TT's on your boat is the same setup that was on mine. but they tried to make mine an automatic valve that would "sense" when the engine coolant got hot
and the piece of bimetal (flipper thing!) would start to rise blocking most of the flow and diverting it into the 1st "T" up to the water heater. well mine never rose (flipper thing) and the water took the path of least resistance straight though to the engine bypassing the water heater.
laustin@us.ibm.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: A clarification...
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The double "T" with throttle valve in between was recommended by Atlantic. They sent me a digram showing it. I believe the reason for it is to provide a scavanged flow to the water heater while still maintaining full flow to the engine heat exchanger. If the water heater part of the circuit restricted flow enough, the engine would overheat! So, by adjusting the valve, one could divert only enough water to the heater to heat the domestic water, and maintain proper total flow to the engine coolant system. By the way, Atlantic also advised me that in most cases the valve is NOT needed! I did Not install it on Hanalei, and the whole thing works just fine. Engine doesn't overheat, and we get hot domestic water after motoring out of the harbour or back into it. Hope this helps....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
The double "T" with throttle valve in between was recommended by Atlantic. They sent me a digram showing it. I believe the reason for it is to provide a scavanged flow to the water heater while still maintaining full flow to the engine heat exchanger. If the water heater part of the circuit restricted flow enough, the engine would overheat! So, by adjusting the valve, one could divert only enough water to the heater to heat the domestic water, and maintain proper total flow to the engine coolant system. By the way, Atlantic also advised me that in most cases the valve is NOT needed! I did Not install it on Hanalei, and the whole thing works just fine. Engine doesn't overheat, and we get hot domestic water after motoring out of the harbour or back into it. Hope this helps....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30