Our recently acquired Cape Dory 36 is the first cutter we have sailed. Though its design calls for a yankee, she carries a genoa on roller furling, which I guess to be about a 130. The staysail is boomed, with two blocks and M rigged sheet, the middle going to a traveller car. The main is 2 and 2 battened, with a sheet that runs from a traveler car through three bails to the mast and back. There is no boom vang.
She sails very well under genoa and main, easy to trim, and tacking through 90* true. With the full genoa out, she goes upwind well even in light airs, much to my pleasant surprise. She also sails well under main and staysail, but is underpowered unless there is a good breeze. (Even under main alone, she tacks comfortably, letting us marina sail just like the J boats.)
BUT .. I am not happy with how she sails when flying all three sails. I suspect a large part of this is my inexperience with cutters generally, and the fact that we are still getting to know this boat. When I get all three trimmed right, the tacking angle grows to about 110*. I can get both the main and the staysail drawing well close to the wind, but the staysail's leeward flow then pulls the foot of the genoa, causing the genoa to luff. In no particular order, here are some questions and thoughts, where I would welcome more knowledgable comments:
(1) I think part of the problem is that we have too much twist in the staysail. Without a barberhauler, the traveller is the only way to control leech tension. So far, we have just centered the car. I suspect moving the stops out so that the car moves to leeward on each tack would give the staysail less twist. Do other CD owners find that this makes a big difference? (I know this seems a stupid question, but I've never had a staysail before ..)
(2) Surprisingly, I do not miss a boom vang. The sheeting and traveller let me get the leech tell-tales flying top and bottom. But this is the aft-most sail, its set controls all the rest, battens are known to tell sweet lies, and so I wonder if this is where I should begin working out the problem?
(3) With main and staysail flying, the full genoa overcanvasses the boat even in light Corpus Christi conditions. In addition, the full genoa is quite difficult to tack through the slot. So we tend to unroll it to between 100 and 110. I suspect this is part of the problem, since the two or three rolls create a barrier at the luff and the genoa's shape is no longer ideal.
(4) I think the previous owner pulled the inner stay back and sailed her as a sloop most of the time. It may be, on this boat, that the staysail and genoa are an awkward combination that will never work as well as I would like? Are other CD 36 owners sailing this combination? We could also pull the inner stay back and sail as a sloop, since the boat sails well this way, OR ..
(5) We could get the genoa recut as a yankee. While I understand that cutters do not point as high as sloops, I am only willing to give up a few degrees. Moving from a tacking angle of 90* to 95* is fine; we are, after all, just cruising around. But I would be disappointed with much more than this. I welcome hearing the experience of other CD 36 owners who sail their boats as cutters ..
All advice welcome!
Need advice on sailing the CD 36 cutter !
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Bob Pence
Re: Need advice on sailing the CD 36 cutter !
Would not move traveler car from center on staysail. Shouold not be necessary. How high are you setting staysail boom?Our recently acquired Cape Dory 36 is the first cutter we have sailed. Though its design calls for a yankee, she carries a genoa on roller furling, which I guess to be about a 130. The staysail is boomed, with two blocks and M rigged sheet, the middle going to a traveller car. The main is 2 and 2 battened, with a sheet that runs from a traveler car through three bails to the mast and back. There is no boom vang.
She sails very well under genoa and main, easy to trim, and tacking through 90* true. With the full genoa out, she goes upwind well even in light airs, much to my pleasant surprise. She also sails well under main and staysail, but is underpowered unless there is a good breeze. (Even under main alone, she tacks comfortably, letting us marina sail just like the J boats.)
BUT .. I am not happy with how she sails when flying all three sails. I suspect a large part of this is my inexperience with cutters generally, and the fact that we are still getting to know this boat. When I get all three trimmed right, the tacking angle grows to about 110*. I can get both the main and the staysail drawing well close to the wind, but the staysail's leeward flow then pulls the foot of the genoa, causing the genoa to luff. In no particular order, here are some questions and thoughts, where I would welcome more knowledgable comments:
(1) I think part of the problem is that we have too much twist in the staysail. Without a barberhauler, the traveller is the only way to control leech tension. So far, we have just centered the car. I suspect moving the stops out so that the car moves to leeward on each tack would give the staysail less twist. Do other CD owners find that this makes a big difference? (I know this seems a stupid question, but I've never had a staysail before ..)
(2) Surprisingly, I do not miss a boom vang. The sheeting and traveller let me get the leech tell-tales flying top and bottom. But this is the aft-most sail, its set controls all the rest, battens are known to tell sweet lies, and so I wonder if this is where I should begin working out the problem?
(3) With main and staysail flying, the full genoa overcanvasses the boat even in light Corpus Christi conditions. In addition, the full genoa is quite difficult to tack through the slot. So we tend to unroll it to between 100 and 110. I suspect this is part of the problem, since the two or three rolls create a barrier at the luff and the genoa's shape is no longer ideal.
(4) I think the previous owner pulled the inner stay back and sailed her as a sloop most of the time. It may be, on this boat, that the staysail and genoa are an awkward combination that will never work as well as I would like? Are other CD 36 owners sailing this combination? We could also pull the inner stay back and sail as a sloop, since the boat sails well this way, OR ..
(5) We could get the genoa recut as a yankee. While I understand that cutters do not point as high as sloops, I am only willing to give up a few degrees. Moving from a tacking angle of 90* to 95* is fine; we are, after all, just cruising around. But I would be disappointed with much more than this. I welcome hearing the experience of other CD 36 owners who sail their boats as cutters ..
All advice welcome!
With all 3 up, unless you are in high wind I would not have genoa partially furled. When tacking through the two stays let genoa back well through before releasing. Can't imagine being overcanvassed with all 3 in light wind. A cutter is a good boat to sail shorthanded, I would not make her sail as a sloop with the inner stay pulled back. We have a 130 genoa on the furler with a yankee backup with a high foot which we use going down the ICW for better visibility underneath, when singlehanding and when it roars. Prior to Six Pence CD36 I always had ketchs which I prefer,especially for singlehanding, but the cutter performs well. What did you sail before? If you have been sailing a lightweight, fin keel sloop, the CD 36 cutter will take some getting used to. Keep on keeping on.
sixpence@dmv.com
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Russell
Does the staysail help the genoa?
Bob, when you're close-hauled, do you find that the staysail helps the genoa, or do you keep it up merely to help tack the genoa through the slot?
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Bob Pence
Re: Does the staysail help the genoa?
Definitely. The less wind, the more sail area. Wind abaft the beam will sometimes cause the staysail to block the jib and requires continual adjustment in light wind.Bob, when you're close-hauled, do you find that the staysail helps the genoa, or do you keep it up merely to help tack the genoa through the slot?
sixpence@dmv.com
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matt cawthorne
Re: Need advice on sailing the CD 36 cutter !
Russel,
I have two yankees on my 36. The smaller is about 110 or 115% and I am not certain about the larger one. I find that the staysail causes the large yankee to luff over the bottom 1/3 of the sail when close hauled. The staysail does not have this negative impact on the smaller yankee. I almost never use the larger yankee as it is difficult to tack in light air. The boat does very well with the smaller yankee and staysail. I enjoy the extra visibility of the yankee and like the cutter rig, but the smaller yankee probably does not give as much power as your larger sail.
As for getting 'over canvassed' try reefing the main first. The design has a fair amount of weather helm. I tend to reef the main at much lower wind speeds than I would most other boats. The boat seems to sail just as fast, because you are using much less rudder.
I let my staysail 'traveller' tack the full width of the track. That seems to give my particular staysail better overall twist. My staysail foot is a little short for the boom and without an outhaul and track/slugs to control the shape the foot is too flat and the twist is too much. I tied a line around the boom to pull the clew down and eased the outhaul line.
I would offer to lend you my yankee for a trial, but it was made in 1982 and is in need of much TLC this winter to patch it up for another couple of seasons. Even with my older sails the boat performs very well.
Have fun sailing. I am jealous. Winter is alomst upon us and the sails are packed in bags.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
I have two yankees on my 36. The smaller is about 110 or 115% and I am not certain about the larger one. I find that the staysail causes the large yankee to luff over the bottom 1/3 of the sail when close hauled. The staysail does not have this negative impact on the smaller yankee. I almost never use the larger yankee as it is difficult to tack in light air. The boat does very well with the smaller yankee and staysail. I enjoy the extra visibility of the yankee and like the cutter rig, but the smaller yankee probably does not give as much power as your larger sail.
As for getting 'over canvassed' try reefing the main first. The design has a fair amount of weather helm. I tend to reef the main at much lower wind speeds than I would most other boats. The boat seems to sail just as fast, because you are using much less rudder.
I let my staysail 'traveller' tack the full width of the track. That seems to give my particular staysail better overall twist. My staysail foot is a little short for the boom and without an outhaul and track/slugs to control the shape the foot is too flat and the twist is too much. I tied a line around the boom to pull the clew down and eased the outhaul line.
I would offer to lend you my yankee for a trial, but it was made in 1982 and is in need of much TLC this winter to patch it up for another couple of seasons. Even with my older sails the boat performs very well.
Have fun sailing. I am jealous. Winter is alomst upon us and the sails are packed in bags.
Matt
Our recently acquired Cape Dory 36 is the first cutter we have sailed. Though its design calls for a yankee, she carries a genoa on roller furling, which I guess to be about a 130. The staysail is boomed, with two blocks and M rigged sheet, the middle going to a traveller car. The main is 2 and 2 battened, with a sheet that runs from a traveler car through three bails to the mast and back. There is no boom vang.
She sails very well under genoa and main, easy to trim, and tacking through 90* true. With the full genoa out, she goes upwind well even in light airs, much to my pleasant surprise. She also sails well under main and staysail, but is underpowered unless there is a good breeze. (Even under main alone, she tacks comfortably, letting us marina sail just like the J boats.)
BUT .. I am not happy with how she sails when flying all three sails. I suspect a large part of this is my inexperience with cutters generally, and the fact that we are still getting to know this boat. When I get all three trimmed right, the tacking angle grows to about 110*. I can get both the main and the staysail drawing well close to the wind, but the staysail's leeward flow then pulls the foot of the genoa, causing the genoa to luff. In no particular order, here are some questions and thoughts, where I would welcome more knowledgable comments:
(1) I think part of the problem is that we have too much twist in the staysail. Without a barberhauler, the traveller is the only way to control leech tension. So far, we have just centered the car. I suspect moving the stops out so that the car moves to leeward on each tack would give the staysail less twist. Do other CD owners find that this makes a big difference? (I know this seems a stupid question, but I've never had a staysail before ..)
(2) Surprisingly, I do not miss a boom vang. The sheeting and traveller let me get the leech tell-tales flying top and bottom. But this is the aft-most sail, its set controls all the rest, battens are known to tell sweet lies, and so I wonder if this is where I should begin working out the problem?
(3) With main and staysail flying, the full genoa overcanvasses the boat even in light Corpus Christi conditions. In addition, the full genoa is quite difficult to tack through the slot. So we tend to unroll it to between 100 and 110. I suspect this is part of the problem, since the two or three rolls create a barrier at the luff and the genoa's shape is no longer ideal.
(4) I think the previous owner pulled the inner stay back and sailed her as a sloop most of the time. It may be, on this boat, that the staysail and genoa are an awkward combination that will never work as well as I would like? Are other CD 36 owners sailing this combination? We could also pull the inner stay back and sail as a sloop, since the boat sails well this way, OR ..
(5) We could get the genoa recut as a yankee. While I understand that cutters do not point as high as sloops, I am only willing to give up a few degrees. Moving from a tacking angle of 90* to 95* is fine; we are, after all, just cruising around. But I would be disappointed with much more than this. I welcome hearing the experience of other CD 36 owners who sail their boats as cutters ..
All advice welcome!
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Russell
Have you ever measured your tacking angle by compass?
Matt, when you are sailing close-hauled with all three sails flying well, have you ever measured the difference in compass course between tacks? I am curious how much more it is than for a CD 36 flying just a genoa ..
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matt
Re: Have you ever measured your tacking angle by compass?
Russel,
I am a little uncomfortable talking pointing angles because there is always the issue of pointing high and going slow versus falling off a few more degrees and making better windward performance. It depends on many factors. My 36 will not point quite as high as many other boats that I sail in the presence of. When conditions are just right (light, steady wind with minimal wave action) I feel that the boat can be tacked through 95 degrees, but those conditions are rare on the Chesapeake. Motor boat wakes, unsteady wind conditions etc. would leave me to say that 105 is more common. The limitation seems to be the wide rig, not interference from the staysail. The yankee can not be brought in close enough to the centerline. A sail with larger overlap might be better able to curve around the spreaders and get the clew in for a better angle. It is likely that my older sails have an impact on the pointing angle.
Even with the less than stellar pointing angle I find that when tacking upwind we are passing or keeping even with most other boats. With the staysail and main together we tack up creeks and rivers when other people have given up and turned on the iron genoa. I love to sail up to where the anchor is to be set in the evening and sail off of the anchor in the morning. It gives me a greater sense of satisfaction and keeps the boat cooler in the summer. In general I am pleased with the performance. On occasion a racing boat with a good crew will pass us and make me check to see that the anchor is still aboard, but that is reasonably rare.
I still have more to learn. I just broke down and bought a gps so that I can learn how to maximize VMG.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
I am a little uncomfortable talking pointing angles because there is always the issue of pointing high and going slow versus falling off a few more degrees and making better windward performance. It depends on many factors. My 36 will not point quite as high as many other boats that I sail in the presence of. When conditions are just right (light, steady wind with minimal wave action) I feel that the boat can be tacked through 95 degrees, but those conditions are rare on the Chesapeake. Motor boat wakes, unsteady wind conditions etc. would leave me to say that 105 is more common. The limitation seems to be the wide rig, not interference from the staysail. The yankee can not be brought in close enough to the centerline. A sail with larger overlap might be better able to curve around the spreaders and get the clew in for a better angle. It is likely that my older sails have an impact on the pointing angle.
Even with the less than stellar pointing angle I find that when tacking upwind we are passing or keeping even with most other boats. With the staysail and main together we tack up creeks and rivers when other people have given up and turned on the iron genoa. I love to sail up to where the anchor is to be set in the evening and sail off of the anchor in the morning. It gives me a greater sense of satisfaction and keeps the boat cooler in the summer. In general I am pleased with the performance. On occasion a racing boat with a good crew will pass us and make me check to see that the anchor is still aboard, but that is reasonably rare.
I still have more to learn. I just broke down and bought a gps so that I can learn how to maximize VMG.
Matt
Matt, when you are sailing close-hauled with all three sails flying well, have you ever measured the difference in compass course between tacks? I am curious how much more it is than for a CD 36 flying just a genoa ..
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Bob Pence
Re: Have you ever measured your tacking angle by compass?
Matt cheats, he uses his Olympic Champion swimming dog to pull the boat faster. Just kidding, I have observed Matt, he is a better than average sailor and trimmer. Happy Holidays, Bob PenceRussel,
I am a little uncomfortable talking pointing angles because there is always the issue of pointing high and going slow versus falling off a few more degrees and making better windward performance. It depends on many factors. My 36 will not point quite as high as many other boats that I sail in the presence of. When conditions are just right (light, steady wind with minimal wave action) I feel that the boat can be tacked through 95 degrees, but those conditions are rare on the Chesapeake. Motor boat wakes, unsteady wind conditions etc. would leave me to say that 105 is more common. The limitation seems to be the wide rig, not interference from the staysail. The yankee can not be brought in close enough to the centerline. A sail with larger overlap might be better able to curve around the spreaders and get the clew in for a better angle. It is likely that my older sails have an impact on the pointing angle.
Even with the less than stellar pointing angle I find that when tacking upwind we are passing or keeping even with most other boats. With the staysail and main together we tack up creeks and rivers when other people have given up and turned on the iron genoa. I love to sail up to where the anchor is to be set in the evening and sail off of the anchor in the morning. It gives me a greater sense of satisfaction and keeps the boat cooler in the summer. In general I am pleased with the performance. On occasion a racing boat with a good crew will pass us and make me check to see that the anchor is still aboard, but that is reasonably rare.
I still have more to learn. I just broke down and bought a gps so that I can learn how to maximize VMG.
Matt
Matt, when you are sailing close-hauled with all three sails flying well, have you ever measured the difference in compass course between tacks? I am curious how much more it is than for a CD 36 flying just a genoa ..
sixpence@dmv.com
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Chuck Carmichael
Re: Need advice on sailing the CD 36 cutter !
Hi Russell;
Congratulations on getting a CD 36. I have had mine since 1982 (hull 67)and have logged some 20,000 miles on her on the Great Lakes. As to sails and trim here's my 2 cents worth:
1. As to the staysail, you want to create a good slot between the staysail and the yankee or genoa and the staysail and the main. I've found that moving the stops on the staysail outboard roughly halfway from center to far out creates a pretty good slot effect. I try to get roughly the same twist in the staysail as I have on the foresail. Overtrimming the staysail will backwind the main. I usually trim out the foresail then the staysail and finally the main. Also try playing a bit with your staysail sheet to obtain optimum sail shape. You may still get some backwinding along the foot of your genoa, but the top 80% of your genoa is probably flying well and your performance is not being harmed.
2. You can install a boom vang on the 36. I did years ago. Placed a bail at the base of the mast and a bail on the boom 3 to 4 feet from the mast. I use the vang as a preventer when sailing off the wind. You really want a preventer for off wing sailing.
3.I also installed a preventer on the staysail boom, a small dinghy variety which I connect to a stanchion base when sailing down wind with the headsails wing on wing. I used to drop the staysail when on a run but now I prevent it over to the same side as the main.
4. Along with cruising, I race our boat in PHRF events. I have learned that when the wind is under 15 knots she move faster to windward with the 135% and the staysail. In fact the staysail means about a 10% increase in boat speed. I never furl in the 135%. You're faster leaving it out and reefing the main. In winds above 15 knots you're faster with a yankee, staysail and full main.
5. My foresail inventory includes a 135% mylar genoa, a 145% 3 oz soft cloth, a yankee, a cruising spinnaker and an asymetrical womper.
The mylar 135% is hard to tack thru the forestays. When racing the foredeck pulls it thru. When sailing shorthanded its safer to furl it in and let it back out after tacking. The yankee has always tacked well. I had the clews on both the 135 and 145 cut high. This may help in eliminating the backwinding you described. I had short battens installed in the last staysail I got. Seems to have given the sail a little better shape. I would not advise to have you cut down your existing genoa to a yankee. I got a new yankee for about $1,000. A genoa is twice that.
6. When trying to point to maximum, moving the mainsail car to windward helps a lot. With the staysail and genoa we can point with most sloops. I got rid of the original track stops and replaced it with a line control system. Big improvement.
7. After all these years I still cannot back her up.
Good luck learning the boat. She's a great sailboat.
Chuck Carmichael
crcgalatea@home.net
Congratulations on getting a CD 36. I have had mine since 1982 (hull 67)and have logged some 20,000 miles on her on the Great Lakes. As to sails and trim here's my 2 cents worth:
1. As to the staysail, you want to create a good slot between the staysail and the yankee or genoa and the staysail and the main. I've found that moving the stops on the staysail outboard roughly halfway from center to far out creates a pretty good slot effect. I try to get roughly the same twist in the staysail as I have on the foresail. Overtrimming the staysail will backwind the main. I usually trim out the foresail then the staysail and finally the main. Also try playing a bit with your staysail sheet to obtain optimum sail shape. You may still get some backwinding along the foot of your genoa, but the top 80% of your genoa is probably flying well and your performance is not being harmed.
2. You can install a boom vang on the 36. I did years ago. Placed a bail at the base of the mast and a bail on the boom 3 to 4 feet from the mast. I use the vang as a preventer when sailing off the wind. You really want a preventer for off wing sailing.
3.I also installed a preventer on the staysail boom, a small dinghy variety which I connect to a stanchion base when sailing down wind with the headsails wing on wing. I used to drop the staysail when on a run but now I prevent it over to the same side as the main.
4. Along with cruising, I race our boat in PHRF events. I have learned that when the wind is under 15 knots she move faster to windward with the 135% and the staysail. In fact the staysail means about a 10% increase in boat speed. I never furl in the 135%. You're faster leaving it out and reefing the main. In winds above 15 knots you're faster with a yankee, staysail and full main.
5. My foresail inventory includes a 135% mylar genoa, a 145% 3 oz soft cloth, a yankee, a cruising spinnaker and an asymetrical womper.
The mylar 135% is hard to tack thru the forestays. When racing the foredeck pulls it thru. When sailing shorthanded its safer to furl it in and let it back out after tacking. The yankee has always tacked well. I had the clews on both the 135 and 145 cut high. This may help in eliminating the backwinding you described. I had short battens installed in the last staysail I got. Seems to have given the sail a little better shape. I would not advise to have you cut down your existing genoa to a yankee. I got a new yankee for about $1,000. A genoa is twice that.
6. When trying to point to maximum, moving the mainsail car to windward helps a lot. With the staysail and genoa we can point with most sloops. I got rid of the original track stops and replaced it with a line control system. Big improvement.
7. After all these years I still cannot back her up.
Good luck learning the boat. She's a great sailboat.
Chuck Carmichael
crcgalatea@home.net
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Russell
Some more dumb questions ..
(1) ".. got rid of the original tracks stops and replaced it with a line control system." I don't know what this is, but I would love to make it easier to move the main sheet car. Can you tell me more?
(2) I've been thinking about adding a mainsail vang. When you use yours as a preventer, where do you cleat it? One of the midship stanchion bases?
(3) I don't worry about the foot of the genoa backwinding for performance reasons, but because the luffing this causes isn't good for the sail. The genoa I have is a traditional sloop cut, with the foot not far off the deck. Dacron. I suspect it is due for reconditioning. Perhaps I should get the foot raised a little. How high is your clew cut?
(2) I've been thinking about adding a mainsail vang. When you use yours as a preventer, where do you cleat it? One of the midship stanchion bases?
(3) I don't worry about the foot of the genoa backwinding for performance reasons, but because the luffing this causes isn't good for the sail. The genoa I have is a traditional sloop cut, with the foot not far off the deck. Dacron. I suspect it is due for reconditioning. Perhaps I should get the foot raised a little. How high is your clew cut?
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Chuck Carmichael
Re: Some more dumb questions ..
Hi again;
1. I'll take a picture when I get over to the yard later this week, but in the meantime here goes. I contacted Rig Right and got a (1) a new car to permit control by a line. I had them fabricate a turning block for the starboard side that screws right onto the track, but the block is in front of the track. On the starboard side they built a double turning block to accomodate both control lines. Here both lines head down to the coach roof and pass thru a double turning block and back to the stoppers I mounted near the mainsheet winch. With this system I can bring the boom to windward in heavy wind from the cockpit without a winch.
2. I hook the preventer to a stanchion base when preventing the main. Have had no problem.
3. The clews of my 135 and 145 are about 4-5 feet above the deck. Your sailmaker can probably give you an opinion about the possibility of raising the clew.
If you e-mail me an address I'll try to send a picture of the traveler modification. It's a vast improvement to the old peg system.
Chuck Carmichael
crcgalatea@home.net
1. I'll take a picture when I get over to the yard later this week, but in the meantime here goes. I contacted Rig Right and got a (1) a new car to permit control by a line. I had them fabricate a turning block for the starboard side that screws right onto the track, but the block is in front of the track. On the starboard side they built a double turning block to accomodate both control lines. Here both lines head down to the coach roof and pass thru a double turning block and back to the stoppers I mounted near the mainsheet winch. With this system I can bring the boom to windward in heavy wind from the cockpit without a winch.
2. I hook the preventer to a stanchion base when preventing the main. Have had no problem.
3. The clews of my 135 and 145 are about 4-5 feet above the deck. Your sailmaker can probably give you an opinion about the possibility of raising the clew.
If you e-mail me an address I'll try to send a picture of the traveler modification. It's a vast improvement to the old peg system.
Chuck Carmichael
crcgalatea@home.net