Has anyone had similar experience to that described below with a Raymarine ST2000+ autotiller? Bill Watson on s/v Kittiwake has stopped in Oriental again, on his 3rd trip from the Chesapeake to the Keys. I'll let him describe the story, and where we've been so far - anyone with similar experience, and of course solutions, please pipe up - it's driving him crazy, although his tiller arm is getting stronger, but somewhat of a problem when single-handing!
"After 2 years of using the autotiller without any problems, coming back up the Hawk Channel (Florida Keys), all of the sudden the autopilot stopped working. Whenever I set a course and pushed auto - it would beep at me, 2000 would flash on the display, and then it would go to the standby mode. The display always showed something. I figured maybe it was dead - so ordered another one, and was going to ship the original unit back to Raymarine for fixing. Well, the second one started doing the same thing - some days it would run all day, some days never. I re-did the connections to the socket, and it seemed to be better, but only for awhile. This summer - re-did the connections again, and it worked for a couple of days - then back to the same problem. Andy thinks it's probably in the unit, but I cannot imagine 2 units, purchased 3 years apart, with vastly different serial numbers, having an identical problem that is not well known to Raymarine."
Well, folks, there it is in Bill's own words. Any ideas? Common sense says that these two units could not fail in the same bizarre way that Raymarine couldn't identify but they both exhibit exactly the same failure mode.
The Raymarine help desk was helpful - they said it sounded like a low voltage problem but the AGM batteries both check out, and voltage doesn't drop too low when starting on either battery (just under 12 volts under load but immediately rebounds to 13.6 when the starter quits turning). Everything else seems good - could a low voltage problem (intermittent) be caused by fluky wiring, or what? Whatever this mystery is, it's beyond my experience with these otherwise very reliable units.
Ideas anyone???
Andy
Peace and Fair Winds, Bill Watson, CD "28", Kittiwake
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EASY VAPE VAPORIZER
Raymarine ST2000+ Gremlin?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Andy Denmark
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Raymarine ST2000+ Gremlin?
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Oswego John
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Raymarine ST2000
Hi Andy,
I haven't a clue as to what is the cause of the errant behavior of the autotiller. At best, I can only offer two and a half wild and crazy guesses.
I have, in the past, been driven to the point of having the screaming meemies by an internal cold solder joint in the equipment.
Another possible gremlin could be the inadvertent exposure of the equipment to magnetism, or, even worse yet, shielding.
I have seen an almost invisible stray whisker of stranded wire at a terminal create an intermittent ground or short due to the slightest vibration, and then disappear.
Good luck with this one,
O J
I haven't a clue as to what is the cause of the errant behavior of the autotiller. At best, I can only offer two and a half wild and crazy guesses.
I have, in the past, been driven to the point of having the screaming meemies by an internal cold solder joint in the equipment.
Another possible gremlin could be the inadvertent exposure of the equipment to magnetism, or, even worse yet, shielding.
I have seen an almost invisible stray whisker of stranded wire at a terminal create an intermittent ground or short due to the slightest vibration, and then disappear.
Good luck with this one,
O J
AP problem
This could be the result of too small of a fuse in the power line. It allows 12 volts to pass through but not enough current to operate the device. Sometimes we replace devices but use the same power cord with fuse. This sometimes doesn't work as the newer device uses more current.
Just a guess, of course. Replace the fuse with a larger one and see if there's a difference.
Just a guess, of course. Replace the fuse with a larger one and see if there's a difference.
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Andy Denmark
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:38
Tomorrow
Here's what I'm gonna' try tomorrow -- wire the Raymarine 2000+ directly to the battery w/o any interim connections, fuse, etc. The only thing we haven't checked out is the electrical panel. It's a Blue Seas and the A/H is on a dedicated 5-A breaker. There are no inline fuses. This should tell us if the panel/breaker is a problem -- something I seriously doubt. The wire run to the A/H is with 16 Gauge and I think that's a bit small but it's a short run and the book says 16 is okay for that length. When I hardwire this thing to the battery I'll use at least #14 or #12 although #16 looks like the largest size the socket connections will accomodate.
The other thing I'll check (first) is the continuity of the ground bus connections. Sometimes ground failures present in weird ways.
OJ - when I was with NASA we found a strange phenomenom with solder joints made with high lead content lead/tin alloy solder. A small lead whisker, almost invisible, would sometimes grow from one solder joint to the nearest conductor, creating a short that was so slight that the voltage from a continuity checker would cause it to burn away. When we checked with a VTVM we could find these things. The solution was to use a high tin alloy solder. Conformal coating helped a lot with these problems, too. But for the longest time we couldn't understand why certain PC boards were giving really weird symptoms. After we discovered these whiskers and could actually remove them from PC boards for analysis we measured some threads with diameters of less than .0005". They were sufficient to carry the miniscule currents on the COSMOS circuitry but not large enough to withstand much else.
FWIW, I don't think this is what we're seeing on Kittiwake. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
BTW, the newer unit is still within warranty and I've suggested to Bill that we send it back to RayMarine to analyze. He doesn't want to do this but I think that what they might find -- either way -- would be telling. But for 2 identical units to fail in the same weird way is certainly puzzling and in total violation of Occam's Razor.
Weirdness reigns supreme here on Broad Creek.
Off topic but of interest -- I wonder how the Carolinas Fleet cruise to Norfolk is going after three days of a pretty stiff nor'easter? If any of you guys read this how about a status report. On the day you planned to cross Albemarle Sound it was blowing 30-35 here with gusts over 40, all from the northeast. My guess is that you holed up in either Belhaven or Alligator river Marina until things laid down a bit.
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Ford Flexible Fuel Vehicle
The other thing I'll check (first) is the continuity of the ground bus connections. Sometimes ground failures present in weird ways.
OJ - when I was with NASA we found a strange phenomenom with solder joints made with high lead content lead/tin alloy solder. A small lead whisker, almost invisible, would sometimes grow from one solder joint to the nearest conductor, creating a short that was so slight that the voltage from a continuity checker would cause it to burn away. When we checked with a VTVM we could find these things. The solution was to use a high tin alloy solder. Conformal coating helped a lot with these problems, too. But for the longest time we couldn't understand why certain PC boards were giving really weird symptoms. After we discovered these whiskers and could actually remove them from PC boards for analysis we measured some threads with diameters of less than .0005". They were sufficient to carry the miniscule currents on the COSMOS circuitry but not large enough to withstand much else.
FWIW, I don't think this is what we're seeing on Kittiwake. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
BTW, the newer unit is still within warranty and I've suggested to Bill that we send it back to RayMarine to analyze. He doesn't want to do this but I think that what they might find -- either way -- would be telling. But for 2 identical units to fail in the same weird way is certainly puzzling and in total violation of Occam's Razor.
Weirdness reigns supreme here on Broad Creek.
Off topic but of interest -- I wonder how the Carolinas Fleet cruise to Norfolk is going after three days of a pretty stiff nor'easter? If any of you guys read this how about a status report. On the day you planned to cross Albemarle Sound it was blowing 30-35 here with gusts over 40, all from the northeast. My guess is that you holed up in either Belhaven or Alligator river Marina until things laid down a bit.
________
Ford Flexible Fuel Vehicle
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.
Yes run the new wire!
Hey Andy,
You've got the idea. You can run a wire any old way to the battery, I would use an inline fuse.
This will start the process of elimination. If it works after the wire run the problem is solved except for replacing the old wire.
Gary
You've got the idea. You can run a wire any old way to the battery, I would use an inline fuse.
This will start the process of elimination. If it works after the wire run the problem is solved except for replacing the old wire.
Gary
Raymarine ST2000+Gremlin
If I remember correctly the 2000+ only needs power and ground to function. If you start running new wires and moving stuff arround you may drive the problem into remission only to raise its ugly head later. When it is failing if you can read the voltage at the AP connector the plus side and the ground side it may tell you what is wrong. For example with the voltmeter connected to a good ground such as the battery minus pole touch the positive AP terminal which should read 12 volts or more. If it is less than 12 volts such as 10 volts than you have a bad wire or connection. Also, measure the ground side for voltage. It should be near zero volts maybe .5 volts or less. If the ground side goes higher then there is a bad ground. Another thought would be to send the original unit back to Raymarine and let them run it on their bench for testing. Just some thoughts.
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bottomscraper
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I assume the same connector is being used for both old and new units. Could it be as simple as corrosion on the power connector? You state that you "re-did the connections to the socket". What about cleaning the plug and socket with contact cleaner?
Failed circuit breakers are not unknown. We recently replaced one for our radar. Sometimes we would turn it on and nothing would happen. I originally thought it was a bad connector on the back of the radar display. I disconnected the cable and checked for power, all seem well, hooked it up and it worked fine. Sometimes it would work sometimes not. Each time it didn't work I would turn off the breaker remove and reinstall the cable and turn the breaker back on. I assumed it was the connector but it was the act of turning the breaker on and off that "fixed" the problem. My intermittent problem went away with a new breaker.
Failed circuit breakers are not unknown. We recently replaced one for our radar. Sometimes we would turn it on and nothing would happen. I originally thought it was a bad connector on the back of the radar display. I disconnected the cable and checked for power, all seem well, hooked it up and it worked fine. Sometimes it would work sometimes not. Each time it didn't work I would turn off the breaker remove and reinstall the cable and turn the breaker back on. I assumed it was the connector but it was the act of turning the breaker on and off that "fixed" the problem. My intermittent problem went away with a new breaker.
Rich Abato
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
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Andy Denmark
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Problem identified, resolution at hand
Wired the A/P directly to the battery but through the plug/socket that's normally mounted on the side of the cockpit well. A/P worked like new! Problem is definitely in the panel somewhere. We are going to swap out the circuit breaker with one of the "spare" breakers, check the continuity of all the connections under load and hook up everything again. Everything should work fine after that.
I suspect that the ground connection at the panel may be the culprit but it might be the breaker. As someone noted above, these things are not infallible. Will report findings when determined as this exercise may save someone else a lot of frustration.
Next project, weather permitting, is to break loose, clean, lube and reassemble all of Kittiwake's turnbuckles. Then we'll tune the rig. I'll do the same to Rhiannon while we're about it.
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3/20
I suspect that the ground connection at the panel may be the culprit but it might be the breaker. As someone noted above, these things are not infallible. Will report findings when determined as this exercise may save someone else a lot of frustration.
Next project, weather permitting, is to break loose, clean, lube and reassemble all of Kittiwake's turnbuckles. Then we'll tune the rig. I'll do the same to Rhiannon while we're about it.
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3/20
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.
ST2000+ freeze problem
I had a similar problem with my ST2000 + and traced it to low voltage spikes. In my case, I was bedeviled by similar problems, but only at night on over-night passages. I finally traced the trouble to my use of the spot light which, when turned on, caused a low voltage transient which froze the ST2000 brain. It did not tell you it was frozen unless you looked at the display and all of the sudden you noticed you were way! off course.
Strangely, the engine starter does not affect the AP although I imagine the current draw must be many times higher than the small spotlight. All I can guess is that the voltage transient must be slower or faster such that the AP filters reject it. I suggest you consider any high current electrical items (fridge, spot light, radar, etc.) and see if you can isolate the offending load by turning them off. Once you identify the problem, then you can decide the best method of solving it, like a dedicated power line, running off a different battery, or just leaving it off while the AP is enabled.
Steve
Strangely, the engine starter does not affect the AP although I imagine the current draw must be many times higher than the small spotlight. All I can guess is that the voltage transient must be slower or faster such that the AP filters reject it. I suggest you consider any high current electrical items (fridge, spot light, radar, etc.) and see if you can isolate the offending load by turning them off. Once you identify the problem, then you can decide the best method of solving it, like a dedicated power line, running off a different battery, or just leaving it off while the AP is enabled.
Steve
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Oswego John
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AP ST 2000
Steve and all,
I think that the last sentence of your reply might say it all.
[Quote]
Once you identify the problem, then you can decide the best method of solving it, like a dedicated power line, running off a different battery, or just leaving it off while the AP is enabled. [End of quote]
From what I get from your post, added to what I assume of how your boat may be wired, I assume that you have separate sets of main feeds coming off your battery(ies). One set of feeders supply your distribution panel. Another set, it could be called dedicated, supplies the starter.
My assumption is that the panel feeders supply the spotlight, AP power source, and anything else that passes through the main panel. If the size of those panel feeders are borderline in ampacity, a huge power demand on the panel, such as that of a powerful spotlight, could cause a reverse spike (dip) that could affect anything else fed by the panel. This could be true whether the other circuits were dedicated ot not.
Not always, but often the engine starting system is powered by a separate battery other than the house power battery. If the starting system is isolated from the rest of the boat's electric/electronic systems, a voltage dip may not occur.
This dip can sometimes be noticed around the house when the refrigerator comes on, you may see the TV picture momentarily reduce in size. Also, when a larger induction motor on a power tool starts up, a flicker of brightness may be observed in the light fixtures.
Many of the larger boat owners that I know have dedicated power feeders to their anchor winches, completely bypassing the power panel, fused of course.
O J
I think that the last sentence of your reply might say it all.
[Quote]
Once you identify the problem, then you can decide the best method of solving it, like a dedicated power line, running off a different battery, or just leaving it off while the AP is enabled. [End of quote]
From what I get from your post, added to what I assume of how your boat may be wired, I assume that you have separate sets of main feeds coming off your battery(ies). One set of feeders supply your distribution panel. Another set, it could be called dedicated, supplies the starter.
My assumption is that the panel feeders supply the spotlight, AP power source, and anything else that passes through the main panel. If the size of those panel feeders are borderline in ampacity, a huge power demand on the panel, such as that of a powerful spotlight, could cause a reverse spike (dip) that could affect anything else fed by the panel. This could be true whether the other circuits were dedicated ot not.
Not always, but often the engine starting system is powered by a separate battery other than the house power battery. If the starting system is isolated from the rest of the boat's electric/electronic systems, a voltage dip may not occur.
This dip can sometimes be noticed around the house when the refrigerator comes on, you may see the TV picture momentarily reduce in size. Also, when a larger induction motor on a power tool starts up, a flicker of brightness may be observed in the light fixtures.
Many of the larger boat owners that I know have dedicated power feeders to their anchor winches, completely bypassing the power panel, fused of course.
O J
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Andy Denmark
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- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:38
Problem solved & all is well again
Further checking of the wiring behind the Blue Seas panel found a flaky ground bus connection. Bill discovered this and corrected it before I could see it but it solved the problem and also explained the weird symptoms that were presenting -- an intermittent ground that couldn't carry the current draw of the linear actuator when it was energized to adjust course.
The electronics in this unit is dead simple and draws almost no current, maybe 200 milliamps, when "thinking" but when the actuator (I believe it's a recirculating ball drive) is energized the current draw goes to 2.5 to 3 amps and the light connection couldn't carry the increase. As Bill explained it, the terminal was only lightly touching on the bus even thought the screw was tightened.
Both A/P's have been tested over a few hours each and both work fine. All connections are redone and the boat put back together. tomorrow we do rigging work, weather permitting (it's supposed to rain).
Thanks for all the good input, guys. All suggestions were appreciated and considered. A few canned libations were consumed during the headscratching phase of this problem -- cognitive lubricant if you will -- and another rather perplexing problem was thus satisfactorily resolved.
Cheers to all who helped in this effort!!
________
ARIZONA MARIJUANA DISPENSARY
The electronics in this unit is dead simple and draws almost no current, maybe 200 milliamps, when "thinking" but when the actuator (I believe it's a recirculating ball drive) is energized the current draw goes to 2.5 to 3 amps and the light connection couldn't carry the increase. As Bill explained it, the terminal was only lightly touching on the bus even thought the screw was tightened.
Both A/P's have been tested over a few hours each and both work fine. All connections are redone and the boat put back together. tomorrow we do rigging work, weather permitting (it's supposed to rain).
Thanks for all the good input, guys. All suggestions were appreciated and considered. A few canned libations were consumed during the headscratching phase of this problem -- cognitive lubricant if you will -- and another rather perplexing problem was thus satisfactorily resolved.
Cheers to all who helped in this effort!!
________
ARIZONA MARIJUANA DISPENSARY
Last edited by Andy Denmark on Feb 13th, '11, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Warren Kaplan
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Its always the wiring, ain't it. I had a problem at the beginning of this year with the 2000+ where sometimes it would go on when I plugged it into the socket and sometimes it wouldn't. My trusty voltmeter traced the problem to a section of wire that had partially pulled out of a butt connector crimp under the shrink wrap. I redid that and have been happy ever since. Funny thing is that everything was fine for 3 years before and why the wire decided to pull out this year is beyond me. It was in a non moving area of wire and I think the vibration from my one lunger YSM8 eventually shook the wire loose from a...uh....less than perfect crimp.
"I desire no more delight, than to be under sail and gone tonight."
(W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
(W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
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Dick Barthel
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Warren,Warren Kaplan wrote:Its always the wiring, ain't it. I had a problem at the beginning of this year with the 2000+ where sometimes it would go on when I plugged it into the socket and sometimes it wouldn't. My trusty voltmeter traced the problem to a section of wire that had partially pulled out of a butt connector crimp under the shrink wrap. I redid that and have been happy ever since. Funny thing is that everything was fine for 3 years before and why the wire decided to pull out this year is beyond me. It was in a non moving area of wire and I think the vibration from my one lunger YSM8 eventually shook the wire loose from a...uh....less than perfect crimp.
Same thing happened to me about three weeks ago. I was plugging it in and it came on but by the time I had the receptacle fully screwed in - nothing. I haven't bother to check it out yet but your post gives me some confidence that its not the unit which is only two or three years old.
Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences.
Dick