?Varnish, Cetol or What?

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm trying to make an intelligent, informed decision. The teal on my CD36 IMAGINE is stripped now and I should have already decided on the finish. Actually I thought I had..., but new information has come to light and now it's complicated again. First of all, my boat will primarily live on the semi-tropical Gulf Coast which is hell on clear finishes. Second, I love the look of glossy varnish on boat teak. I need to know what actually works and requires the least maintenance. (I do realize that boats are for sailing.) As I understand it the new Cetol Natural Teak is very light and when overcoated with Cetol Gloss looks almost like varnish. That would probably be acceptable, BUT will the maintenance really be less than a properly applied good thick varnish finish would require? If the answer is NO, then WHICH varnish is best? Does anybody have experience with LeTonkinois in a semi-tropical climate? Please help me decide.

[Russell]

I would want to see Cetol natural teak finish in person first, but the pictures shown on this board seriously make me consider switching next time I redo the brightwork, if it looks as good in person, I am sold on trying it. And this is coming from a die hard varnish fan who despises the look of regular cetol. As for Le Tonk, I have met people who have used it, but never met a die hard devotee, not to say they dont exist, but personally I would stick with my epiphanes before going to Le Tonk.

That said, reguardless of finish, often I wish I bought a boat with less brightwork! Some days (while sanding in the tropics) I miss my old catalina!

[KDreese]

This is an endless debate, but my 2cents after doing my first ever varnish project on my new to me CD25. I went the cetol route because what I learned was varnish takes 7-12 coats and cetol only takes 3. In addition, I heard that some of the reasons for people not liking cetol is the cloudy muddy appearance that can occur over time. Talking to a guy that varnishes boats for a living (renovates those nice mahogany lake runabouts) he said the muddiness can be avoided if you stick to only 3 coats each season. He was saying that basically just sand the 3rd coat each year and add the 3rd coat back and you should be fine... that sounded a lot easier to me than trying to get 7-12 coats of varnish maintained each year.

I live in New England so the sailing season is short (if I sailed all year I might think twice about the wood finish because there would be more weekends available to use the boat) and the boat I bought had to be stripped all the way down on basically every piece of wood. I was lucky to get the stripping, prep, and 3 coats of Cetol on there before I could go sailing. Does it look amazing? Well... I think it looks really good for my first time and lots of people comment that the "varnish" looks great. However, in my opinion from looking at other boats in comparison it still doesnt look as glassy/glossy as true varnish done properly but was a good compromise for my first boat... I mean I did buy it to sail after all and I think the old girl looks nice enough for me.

Good luck with the research. Oh and one more thing, the archive on this board is great for this type of thing and was very helpful to me in making this and other choices.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Dean Abramson]

We have been very happy with Starbrite Tropical Teak Sealer. We bronze wool the gray spots and then apply the sealer. One coat in the spring and that is it; it lasts pretty darn well thru the season in our New England locale. We much prefer the lighter of the two versions. I hardly ever hear this product spoken of in these discussions, but we like it.

Dean

[Zeida]

Troy, Bandolera, my CD33 lives in the water all year round in Key Biscayne, Miami, Florida, with the sun as much a killer as you will experience. I use Signature Finish Honey Teak, and could not be happier with it. The proper initial application is key, but when done right, it lasts well over a year and a half without having to touch it.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 563602.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 5635f3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... d9a4f2.jpg[/img]

If you call them up, talk to Tom Fabula, 1-772-287-6077.
Honey Teak is a two part polyurethane finish. The Honey gives the clean raw teak a beautiful color, the Clear seals it off. If your wood all over is now in beautiful condition, this is the time. Four to five coats of Honey, and four to five coats of clear and you will be very happy.

[Troy Scott]

Russell (and all),

These days my boat is inside an air-conditioned hangar and the teak is stripped, clean and ready to refinish. So for now at least, the extra effort to apply a good 7-12 coat varnish job could be accomplished in relatively comfortable conditions. However, the subsequent MAINTENANCE coats will probably be accomplished on pleasant days with the boat in the water. (Unfortunately these happen usually to be fine SAILING days.) So my question is not so much which finish is easiest and quickest to apply, but rather which finish will be easiest to MAINTAIN. For example: Will a finish of three coats of Cetol Natural Teak followed by three coats of Cetol Gloss really be easier to maintain than a finish consisting of seven to twelve coats of "EP-eh-fains"? Or is it a toss-up because each would need an additional coat or two per year anyway? Also, what about sanding before the maintenance coat? LeTonkinois claims you don't need to sand before a maintenance coat. That would be a huge time-saver. What about "EP-eh-fains"? Do you sand before a maintenance coat? How often are additional coats required? Does ANYBODY know how the "natural UV protection" in LeTonkinois compares to the synthetic UV enhancement of Epifanes and/or Cetol Natural and Gloss?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm about to take a big step that I'll be living with for a long time. I want her to look good, but I don't want a maintenance headache.

[Troy Scott]

Zeida,

Your boat looks great! Thanks for the photos!

I used a two-part LPU finish on the teak on my Pearson 33 which was destroyed by Katrina. Before the storm I had noticed that the finish (less than six months old) had begun to fail. It was not Honey Teak, but still the experience leaves me doubtful of these two-part finishes. No doubt you did a superb prep and application of a probably better product. Based on your experience, I will consider the use of Honey Teak.

[Zeida]

Troy, for additional info on the use of Honey Teak...

the pictures you saw of my boat were taken on April 5 2006. Today, my entire cockpit area is still the same with no touch. The toe rail, handrails and eyebrows suffer the most and are the most difficult to deal with! The outside of the toerail is still just as good. The handrails, eyebrows and inside toerail are beginning to show some discoloration. But it is time for me to do something about it. Like you, the times I have to spend at the boat, I would rather be sailing, but I do keep up with the teak maintenance. With the HoneyTeak, you do not sand down anything. As Tom Fabula will tell you, you use a Red scuff pad and dull the existing finish some. Because I already have a good solid base on my wood and it is not bad, I will apply two or three coats of the Honey -it is u.v. protectant- and then four or five coats of clear. These you apply wet on wet. On the toe rail, I start at the starboard end, on the outside. by the time I finish all around, the paint is already tacky enough so I can start again on the same route. I do this four times in one day. The next day I tackle the inside of the toe rail. A third day I do the eyebrows and handrails. I split the job so I don't kill myself, because I do this with Bando in the water. I also have no help, just myself. I do not use tape to mask up anything. If I spill anything, I clean it up asap with a rag soaked up in the "Flow" -also from HoneyTeak, and it's gone. If you end up using honeyteak, buy extra Flow. It is extremely useful for cleaning up anything on the white gelcoat. It is also what you use the most. Also to clean up and store brushes in between use. I fill a quarter plastic container with half of flow and store my brushes in it. They are always ready for use.

With your boat under cover, teak immaculate and ready to go, I strongly recommend you take the time and try the Honey Teak. Bristol Finish is a very similar product. The guys used to work at Honey Teak, then left and started their own brand using almost the same technique as Signature Finish. But do not short cut the application. Be very careful with the way you mix the products, this is absolutely critical. Too much or too little of the catalyst in any of the two formulas, and it does not work. Once you have the right mix, apply with the best fiber brush possible, light coats, stretching the paint as you go, and this avoids possible bubbles. Do not apply thick. If you have a helper, make sure he or she does exactly as you would. At this point with your boat protected from dust and sun, I would put well over 6 coats of the Honey and 6 of Clear. You won't believe the results. Unlike varnish, this product hardens up nicely and you can step on it without leaving marks. Overall, it has given me great results.

I would never again in my life use Varnish. I USED to use Epiphanes, which is YES, beautiful, but gone 6 months later. AND you do have to sand it down completely to re-varnish. However, I do still use it in the cockpit table, and would you know it, you can not tell the difference!

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 8e7b5d.jpg[/img]
This is the Red scuffing pad you use and the brushes I use. The smaller for toerail, handrails and eyebrows. The bigger one for the cockpit and flat panels.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 563e14.jpg[/img]
This is Epiphanes. The CD logo was put in right after the first coat of varnish. Five more coats followed over it. I used varnish because I could take the table home and varnish it in my garage. It is also always covered and the sun does not damage it.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 563983.jpg[/img]
The dorade boxes are my pride and joy. Boy did they turn out spectacular!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 729c26.jpg[/img]
The entire cockpit is protected from the sun with bimini and dodger.

[Troy Scott]

Zeida,

When you say the Epifanes is "gone six months later" what do you mean exactly? Does that mean that if it goes six months without a recoat then it's damaged beyond just needing a maintenance coat?

[Troy Scott]

Russell,
What is the necessary maintenance in the tropics for Epifanes? How often do you recoat? Do you sand before recoating? How long would it be before the finish was unsalvageable (requiring a complete strip) if you neglected it?

[Troy Scott]

Zeida,

In your Honey Teak maintenance regime, you're just replacing part of the outermost clear layer, right? How does that clear layer hold up?

All:
I see a similarity here to the Cetol system, where a primary layer of highly UV protected is overcoated by a more sacrificial layer. Thoughts?

[Zeida]

Troy, as per my experience with the varnish, you are correct... I would have to start varnishing all the teak "before" it starts to fall apart... which in Miami, if it lasts 6 months you are lucky. I would probably need to put 12 coats of the Epiphanes to make it last longer... maybe. So for me, that is way too much maintenance just on the teak.

With the honeyteak, the honey part is the uv/color. The clear is the sealer that seals the wood, hardens it and makes it last. I don't think it is like a sacrificial coat, but rather an absolutely necessary second part to the process. I personally do not like the Cetol because I prefer the gloss and the hard finish. The Pacific Seacraft next to me uses Cetol on his teak, has to do it at least once a year, by that time his wood is looking raw and patchy and looks nowhere near as mine. But these are preferences and how much work you are willing to do.

However, I am sure once you finish with your boat, she will probably be a beauty. I would love to see pictures of her then.

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 1218a7.jpg[/img]

[Zeida]

Troy, I see I neglected to answer your specific question: on the honeyteak maintenance, ideally I should "only" scuff the existing finish and just continue building up coats of clear once a year.

But I have found that I like what two more coats of the honey will do to the overall look, before I continue with the extra coats of clear. For example, before doing the entire boat this past april 2006, I had done it previously in January 2004 and it lasted all that time without me having to deal with it. Then it started to deteriorate . So I got the Red scuff pads and went to work. I do like the deep color of the honey, so I add some every time. But if everything is applied properly, with no problem it will last two years before redoing. Tom Fabula will insist two coats of each are enough. NO. Go way overboard and you get two years out of it.

[Troy Scott]

Zeida,

WRT The fellow next to you who uses Cetol on the Pacific Seacraft's teak: Do you know which particular Cetol system he is using? Like you I despise the look of the original "muddy" Cetol Marine. However, the more recent system consisting of Cetol Natural Teak overcoated with Cetol Gloss Clear sounds an awful lot like the same principle as the Honey Teak despite the fact that Cetol isn't catalyzed. While I haven't seen an example of this new system in person, I've heard it described as practically equal to varnish in appearance.

Also, do you know if there is any UV protection in the Honey Teak Clear Coat?

[Zeida]

Troy, from reading the above posts, I have just learned that Cetol has a new product, which I have not seen in use as yet. The Pacific Seacraft next to me has been using the regular version. Last time he did it was in mid year 2006. So I imagine he had not known of the newer version.

On the Honeyteak, the honey is the one with the uv inhibitor. The clear, as you said, is a sacrificial film to the elements.

I think you can check out real info at http://www.fabulainc.com.