I know there aren't many on this board who watched the America's Cup preliminaries, probably just Zeida and me, but somebody might be able to answer a question I have.
I believe the winning team has the right to change the rules quite extensively. If the Kiwis win, which is now a distinct possibility since they beat the Italians 5-0 for the right to challenge the cup holder, Switzerland, will they opt to change the rules concerning nationality? In other words, will boats have to be crewed by citizens of the countries they're representing?
At the moment, there are 22 Kiwis in the crew pool of the Kiwi boat, and 10 Kiwis in the crew pool of the Swiss boat, but there are no rules governing the nationality of the crews. The only rule of that kind is the one that says that challenging boats must be built in the country in which the challenging organization is situated.
I think a lot of the problem with the present set-up is the lack of national identity. I'd like to root for an all-American boat, or an all-British boat, or whatever. I can't get too excited about boats crewed by professionals from a hodge-podge of foreign countries.
And, if the Kiwis beat the Swiss for the cup, I wonder if they'll change the venue to New Zealand? Their major sponsor seems to be the United Emirates, and big money like that carries a large amount of persuasion. Could the next America's Cup be held in the Persian Gulf under Arab hosts?
Methinks it's time the darned cup came back to America where it belongs. If they don't change the nationality rules we should just grit our teeth and buy the country of New Zealand. Geez, it couldn't cost that much, not as much as the Iraq war, for instance. Let's make it the 51st state. They're quite nice blokes, on the whole. They already speak a form of English and they make a good beer, Steinlager. We could no doubt wean them onto Dark-'n-Stormies soon enough.
Cheers,
John Vigor
America's Cup thoughts
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
John Vigor
- Posts: 608
- Joined: Aug 27th, '06, 15:58
- Contact:
Rules?! We don't need no stinkin' rules!
I was following the races on the website. I don't know about the official rules, but there should be an unofficial rule to the effect that the universe is wrong when 1) the Americans don't have the America's Cup, and 2) the people who do are a multi-national crew with Americans on the team.
For instance, I feel like I might feel about the following headline:
"France Wins Super Bowl!"
For instance, I feel like I might feel about the following headline:
"France Wins Super Bowl!"
-
mike feeney
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Feb 28th, '05, 17:49
- Location: CD30K Pilgrim, Merepoint, ME
olympics
And how about this....Andy Horton from VT and Brad Nichol from NH are the #1 US Star team and thus will represent the US in the China olympics. But Andy has been sitting on Luna Rossa's stern for its entire campaign (an Italian boat) and has been unable to practice with his Star crew or attend any of the Star regattas while the Cup spectacle was raging.
The chances for a US gold in the Star have been compromised.
Bring back Ted Turner, let the wealthy amateurs run the Cup races and send the professionals packing.Sailing should be a "Corinthian" sport.
Furthermore, Cup racers (except the Kiwi's and maybe the Aussies) spend more time in the gym than in bars.
The chances for a US gold in the Star have been compromised.
Bring back Ted Turner, let the wealthy amateurs run the Cup races and send the professionals packing.Sailing should be a "Corinthian" sport.
Furthermore, Cup racers (except the Kiwi's and maybe the Aussies) spend more time in the gym than in bars.
Mike Feeney
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats" Kenneth Grahame, The Wind In The Willows
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats" Kenneth Grahame, The Wind In The Willows
Re: olympics
Yeah, we need that, and more. We need to find a way to win in grand American style - with sleek, stylish boats and lots of teak and brass. That way nobody can complain that it's all about the high-tech materials and butt-ugly "efficient" sailboat designs.mike feeney wrote:... Bring back Ted Turner, let the wealthy amateurs run the Cup races and send the professionals packing.Sailing should be a "Corinthian" sport.
Furthermore, Cup racers (except the Kiwi's and maybe the Aussies) spend more time in the gym than in bars.
I want to see teak and topsails, d@mmit!
-
Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Strategy
Well, first you start a rumor that Switzerland has weapons of mass destruction, and then...
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 14:03
- Location: CD33 Pegasus
- Contact:
National Team
I agree, it is a shame there is no longer a citizenship requirement along with homeland design requirement. It is now like the NFL, buy the team buy the boat, buy the cup......oh wait that did not work for oracle....too bad a SF bay cup would have been nice.
Rick Bell
CD 33 Pegasus
CD 33 Pegasus
-
Joe CD MS 300
- Posts: 995
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 16:18
- Location: Cape Dory Motor Sailor 300 / "Quest" / Linekin Bay - Boothbay Harbor
-
Parfait's Provider
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 13:06
- Location: CD/36 #84, Parfait, Raleigh, NC
berthed Whortonsville, NC
Good Old Days
Yes, let's bring back the good old days of Dennis Conner racing a cat against a monohull and promoting fairness, ethics, morality, and other traits our children and others should emulate.
Now then, I have lost my lust for chasing the boats around on my computer screen, but maybe I'll watch the Cup to see the Kiwis pull it off the Alps and put it back on the beach where it belongs.
Now then, I have lost my lust for chasing the boats around on my computer screen, but maybe I'll watch the Cup to see the Kiwis pull it off the Alps and put it back on the beach where it belongs.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/36 #84
Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/36 #84
Parfait
Raleigh, NC
-
Dean Abramson
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Jul 5th, '05, 11:23
- Location: CD 31 "Loda May"
Seriously
I am with John. I hope they go back to a more national concept.
I watched every race of the Louis Vuitton Cup, admittedly sometimes with the help of the fast-forward button. It was fascinating, if not always exactly nail-biting.
As Ken points out, you would have to go back to pre-Dennis, at least.
Now, I am going to root for the Kiwis, because as others point out, at least they have a coast. I do think that the actual Cup races will be closer than most of what we have seen so far.
Dean
I watched every race of the Louis Vuitton Cup, admittedly sometimes with the help of the fast-forward button. It was fascinating, if not always exactly nail-biting.
As Ken points out, you would have to go back to pre-Dennis, at least.
Now, I am going to root for the Kiwis, because as others point out, at least they have a coast. I do think that the actual Cup races will be closer than most of what we have seen so far.
Dean
Dean Abramson
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
Cape Dory 31 "Loda May"
Falmouth, Maine
I have to say I thought the boats, tactics and crew work have thus far been FANTASTIC.
I was very impressed by these well oil machines and believe this years race from a match race stand point on one of the best I have ever witnessed.
The boats are wonderful and the crew work has been stellar.
I have to say I like the current rules and I enjoy watching true professionals on the race coarse. The America's Cup today is not an amateurs race and it has always been dominated by well paid professional crews with lots and lots of money.
I just spent last night working on the race committee boat for my local club's Thursday night one design series of JY boats. I have to say I also loved watching these amateurs racing around the course. Tomorrow, I am off to Newport to cheer on a friend who is competing in the Bermuda 1 2 (a single and double handed race to Bermuda and back) in a 1970's Bristol 39 and then it is off to Block Island for the Spring Off Soundings PHRF race. The great thing about sailboat racing is that it comes in all shapes and sizes for all types of boats, budgets and age groups.
I am sure the rules will change some for the next running but for today I think the rules are just fine.
I was very impressed by these well oil machines and believe this years race from a match race stand point on one of the best I have ever witnessed.
The boats are wonderful and the crew work has been stellar.
I have to say I like the current rules and I enjoy watching true professionals on the race coarse. The America's Cup today is not an amateurs race and it has always been dominated by well paid professional crews with lots and lots of money.
I just spent last night working on the race committee boat for my local club's Thursday night one design series of JY boats. I have to say I also loved watching these amateurs racing around the course. Tomorrow, I am off to Newport to cheer on a friend who is competing in the Bermuda 1 2 (a single and double handed race to Bermuda and back) in a 1970's Bristol 39 and then it is off to Block Island for the Spring Off Soundings PHRF race. The great thing about sailboat racing is that it comes in all shapes and sizes for all types of boats, budgets and age groups.
I am sure the rules will change some for the next running but for today I think the rules are just fine.
-
Warren Kaplan
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:44
- Location: Former owner of Sine Qua Non CD27 #166 1980 Oyster Bay Harbor, NY Member # 317
I agree with George. I watched 3 of the races and I was amazed with the sail handling perfection. We all strive to handle a boat the way those guys do so I enjoy watching it when I can get to see it.
When I lived in San Diego I watched Dennis Connor and crew run Liberty up and down San Diego Bay. It was a joy to watch those graceful 12 meter yachts.
The America's Cup ceased to be a gentleman's event populated by skilled amateurs the minute shrouds over keels were used to hide what was there and lawyers got into the act going into Federal and State Courts, of all things, to arbitrate rule disputes.
Its big BIG money now. All those ads pasted over those once pristine sails aren't there for nothin'. The money guys want the best and the best are guys who do nothing but sailing as a livelihood.
The days of the Vanderbilts, Thomas Lipton, Bob Bavier, Bus Moshbacher, Ted Hood and Ted Turner were great to watch but methinks those days are never coming back. A pity in many ways.
When I lived in San Diego I watched Dennis Connor and crew run Liberty up and down San Diego Bay. It was a joy to watch those graceful 12 meter yachts.
The America's Cup ceased to be a gentleman's event populated by skilled amateurs the minute shrouds over keels were used to hide what was there and lawyers got into the act going into Federal and State Courts, of all things, to arbitrate rule disputes.
Its big BIG money now. All those ads pasted over those once pristine sails aren't there for nothin'. The money guys want the best and the best are guys who do nothing but sailing as a livelihood.
The days of the Vanderbilts, Thomas Lipton, Bob Bavier, Bus Moshbacher, Ted Hood and Ted Turner were great to watch but methinks those days are never coming back. A pity in many ways.
"I desire no more delight, than to be under sail and gone tonight."
(W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
(W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice)
-
Sea Hunt
- Posts: 1310
- Joined: Jan 29th, '06, 23:14
- Location: Former caretaker of 1977 Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (Hull #1400) "S/V Tadpole"
Mr. Vigor:
I absolutely do NOT pretend to have your knowledge and expertise in sailing, boat design, etc.
Having watched all of the Louis Vuitton races (I am Sicilian Italian by birth and today remain in a state of despair), it is my recollection that the winner of the America’s Cup (Switzerland or New Zealand) can select the venue for the next race in 2011 (?). The winner also has privileges concerning sail configuration, hull length, shape, keel, etc., although this has not been clearly explained by the VS channel crew.
The “America’s Cup” is not named after our country “America”. As I recall history, it is named after the sailboat that first challenged for the race in the late 1800s. In 1851 the sailboat “AMERICA” beat the Royal Yacht Squadron in a race round the Isle of Wight for the “Hundred Pound Cup” - later renamed the America's Cup after the first yacht to win it.
I absolutely do NOT pretend to have your knowledge and expertise in sailing, boat design, etc.
Having watched all of the Louis Vuitton races (I am Sicilian Italian by birth and today remain in a state of despair), it is my recollection that the winner of the America’s Cup (Switzerland or New Zealand) can select the venue for the next race in 2011 (?). The winner also has privileges concerning sail configuration, hull length, shape, keel, etc., although this has not been clearly explained by the VS channel crew.
The “America’s Cup” is not named after our country “America”. As I recall history, it is named after the sailboat that first challenged for the race in the late 1800s. In 1851 the sailboat “AMERICA” beat the Royal Yacht Squadron in a race round the Isle of Wight for the “Hundred Pound Cup” - later renamed the America's Cup after the first yacht to win it.
Fair winds,
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Robert
Sea Hunt a/k/a "The Tadpole Sailor"
CDSOA #1097
Teak and topsails!
Here's my solution, fwiw...
The formula currently being used for the IACC is:
[img]http://www.tfn.net/~wingreen/americas_cup_formula.GIF[/img]
Where L = length in meters, S = sail area in sq. meters, DSP = displacement in cubic meters.
We can solve the problem simply by tweaking the formula thus:
[img]http://www.tfn.net/~wingreen/americas_c ... evised.GIF[/img]
Where L = length in meters, S = sail area in sq. meters, DSP = displacement in cubic meters, as above. However, St = topsail area, T = board feet of teak, B = cubic meters of brass, and A = the overall aesthetic value of the boat, rated on a scale of 0 - 5, with 0 being butt-ugly, and 5 being yar.
You see, topsail area only counts for 0.25 of all other sail areas, thus being an incentive to add topsails. Similarly, boats that make a greater aesthetic impression allow the waterline to be increased by up to 5 meters. I have also figured that it's reasonable to require the ratio of teak to sail area to be about 1 board foot for every ten square feet of sail area, and the ratio of volume of brass to displacement to to be about 1 cubic foot for every 1000 cubic feet of displacement. These last two ratios can be tweaked a little, but you get the drift.
The formula currently being used for the IACC is:
[img]http://www.tfn.net/~wingreen/americas_cup_formula.GIF[/img]
Where L = length in meters, S = sail area in sq. meters, DSP = displacement in cubic meters.
We can solve the problem simply by tweaking the formula thus:
[img]http://www.tfn.net/~wingreen/americas_c ... evised.GIF[/img]
Where L = length in meters, S = sail area in sq. meters, DSP = displacement in cubic meters, as above. However, St = topsail area, T = board feet of teak, B = cubic meters of brass, and A = the overall aesthetic value of the boat, rated on a scale of 0 - 5, with 0 being butt-ugly, and 5 being yar.
You see, topsail area only counts for 0.25 of all other sail areas, thus being an incentive to add topsails. Similarly, boats that make a greater aesthetic impression allow the waterline to be increased by up to 5 meters. I have also figured that it's reasonable to require the ratio of teak to sail area to be about 1 board foot for every ten square feet of sail area, and the ratio of volume of brass to displacement to to be about 1 cubic foot for every 1000 cubic feet of displacement. These last two ratios can be tweaked a little, but you get the drift.
-
Zeida
- Posts: 600
- Joined: May 27th, '05, 07:10
- Location: 1982 CD33 "Bandolera II" Hull #73Key Biscayne-Miami, Florida
- Contact:
Warren... what is the difference between the Vanderbilts, Liptons, Queen Victoria, etc. etc? . It has ALWAYS been about BIG MONEY. Without it, there would be no sports whatsoever. Now we have the Bertarellis, (Prada) Bertelli, (Alinghi) and thank God, we also have Larry Ellison who has been trying his darnest best to put forth a fantastic effort in the name of USA. We did not win, but we tried. Even in the first America's Cup race, the sailing crew were all paid professionals! So to think this is an amateur endeavor, is to miss the mark! I love the fact that the Kiwis won. They had the most sailors from their own nation, and that must have made a big difference in communication. Theirs was also the fastest boat, they were the best crew, the best equipment of all. It was such a pleasure to see them!
It has been thrilling to watch those SUPERB sailors, in those fantastic boats doing things we can only dream about. I love my Cape Dory 33, but I also used to race J-24's. The America's Cup is my Olympics of sailing, and I don't care where the crews come from, as long as they are the best at what they do. Of course, a sport of this magnitude needs the BIG MONEY and the SPONSORS. What is wrong with that? That is also the reason we all can see it LIVE from Valencia !!! Because a TV network is getting paid to broadcast it. So let's support BIG MONEY AND SAILING!
Racing Lacers or dinghys in our own sailing clubs is something else. That is what WE , the amateurs, do. But what is football without the sponsors... or tennis... or baseball... or boxing... or Nascar, or the superfast speed boats... or any of the big sports? Why should we be thinking of " the good ole days... " we have a thousand better "new days" now. Better designers, better sails, technology, better sailors, better rigs, better boats, this is the time we llive in. Who would like to trade their 2007 cars for a horse and carriage? Not me! I can ride one in Central Park in NYC during a weekend trip, but then, I also love my new smartphone, GPS, tablet computer, state of the art roof coating to protect my house during the hurricanes... and I can go on and on...
I say, support Larry Ellison's love of sailing, his committment to represent USA in such a sport, and encourage him to continue in his quest for bringing the cup back to San Francisco! If more American sailors are available, even better, but if not, let him get whoever he can and put together another top team. In the meantime, Alinghi will most possibly be helmed by either one of the two AMERICAN sailors who are part of the Alinghi syndicate. BMW ORACLE has been a super class act in Valencia, and no one will ever forget them. I have been an avid Oracle fan, and now am rooting for TNZ... would not miss June 23rd. for anything!
That's me with Grant Dalton himself - Skipper/CEO and grinder on TNZ. GO KIWIS!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 6cea7f.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 6ce93b.jpg[/img]
It has been thrilling to watch those SUPERB sailors, in those fantastic boats doing things we can only dream about. I love my Cape Dory 33, but I also used to race J-24's. The America's Cup is my Olympics of sailing, and I don't care where the crews come from, as long as they are the best at what they do. Of course, a sport of this magnitude needs the BIG MONEY and the SPONSORS. What is wrong with that? That is also the reason we all can see it LIVE from Valencia !!! Because a TV network is getting paid to broadcast it. So let's support BIG MONEY AND SAILING!
Racing Lacers or dinghys in our own sailing clubs is something else. That is what WE , the amateurs, do. But what is football without the sponsors... or tennis... or baseball... or boxing... or Nascar, or the superfast speed boats... or any of the big sports? Why should we be thinking of " the good ole days... " we have a thousand better "new days" now. Better designers, better sails, technology, better sailors, better rigs, better boats, this is the time we llive in. Who would like to trade their 2007 cars for a horse and carriage? Not me! I can ride one in Central Park in NYC during a weekend trip, but then, I also love my new smartphone, GPS, tablet computer, state of the art roof coating to protect my house during the hurricanes... and I can go on and on...
I say, support Larry Ellison's love of sailing, his committment to represent USA in such a sport, and encourage him to continue in his quest for bringing the cup back to San Francisco! If more American sailors are available, even better, but if not, let him get whoever he can and put together another top team. In the meantime, Alinghi will most possibly be helmed by either one of the two AMERICAN sailors who are part of the Alinghi syndicate. BMW ORACLE has been a super class act in Valencia, and no one will ever forget them. I have been an avid Oracle fan, and now am rooting for TNZ... would not miss June 23rd. for anything!
That's me with Grant Dalton himself - Skipper/CEO and grinder on TNZ. GO KIWIS!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 6cea7f.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sra ... 6ce93b.jpg[/img]
Zeida
CDSOA Member
CDSOA Member
-
Mike Wainfeld
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Feb 11th, '05, 13:45
- Location: CD Typhoon "Regalo"
Bayshore, NY - Contact:
No symmetrical spinnakers?
Zeida-Nice shot of you and Grant on your boat 
. The sails used on the downwind legs looked like asymmetrical spinnakers. The poles were always all the way forward, like a sprit. Is it that they can sail faster a little less deep than dead downwind? They were also using a staysail on a furler inside the spinnaker. They would furl it up and then drop the whole furler. And did you see how fast they got those spinnakers down and stowed? Another thing I noticed was how light the halyards looked-must be one of those hi-tech lines.
But it was really nice seeing them execute all those maneuvers so well. Perfectly straight lines sailing upwind, tacks just dead on, jibes faultless; like seeing a major league ballplayer turning a double play.
. The sails used on the downwind legs looked like asymmetrical spinnakers. The poles were always all the way forward, like a sprit. Is it that they can sail faster a little less deep than dead downwind? They were also using a staysail on a furler inside the spinnaker. They would furl it up and then drop the whole furler. And did you see how fast they got those spinnakers down and stowed? Another thing I noticed was how light the halyards looked-must be one of those hi-tech lines. But it was really nice seeing them execute all those maneuvers so well. Perfectly straight lines sailing upwind, tacks just dead on, jibes faultless; like seeing a major league ballplayer turning a double play.