Holding tank to bilge leak?

[John Vigor]

Dean and John V


I have never used Git-Rot when working on fiberglass or other man-made substances so I can't comment on it. I don't see why it wouldn't do the job. I imagine that it would penetrate porous material better than plain, two part epoxy

I have used Git-Rot several times on dry rot with good results. I had always been under the impression that the formula for it was developed to be osmotically absorbed into cellulose material (wood) to repair and strengthen it. It would be interesting to find out how it would work with fiberglass, etc.

O J

O J, I've used Git-Rot to bond a white oak sampson post to a fiberglass deck and it worked just fine. The sampson post was a better fit than I could have wished for, and there wasn't enough space in the hole for a normal sealant. So I just dammed the area around the sampson post under the deck, and squirted Git-Rot down the sliver of a crack. It filled every little space, set hard, and made a perfect fit.

Git-Rot actually works by capillary attraction, not osmosis, but the result is the same. It gets to places where thicker liquids wouldn't.

Incidentally, I believe butterflies are the result of caterpillary atttraction. Something I learned in Lepidopterous Sex-Ed 101.

Cheers,

John V.

[Dean Abramson]

OJ,

Are you saying that you think that regular epoxy would do okay on top of Tolley's? OR, are you suggesting only Tolley's in the holding tank, and only epoxy in the bilge? I could kinda read that either way.

Now, the reality is that I probably cannot get all moisture out of the recesses of the crack in the holding tank. Would regular epoxy bond better in a moist environment than Tolley's?

Don't worry, guys: I am not going to hold anyone responsible, and I sure appreciate the help!

In any event, Tom tells me that it is unlikely I can do anything which would hinder their doing it "right" at a later date. But I do think I can fix this satisfactorily. I am not planning to invite Martha Stewart aboard.

Dean

[Randy Capstick]

Hi Dean,

I'm not sure you'll have much success unless there is very little or no moisture present.

If, after draining, you could get a shopvac in there to suck out what's left in the crack, that would help. Maybe then a Hairdryer with a hose attached would dry out the remaining moisture somewhat. When as dry as possible I would suggest removing the heat source/dryer(important!) then pouring acetone in the crack in an attempt to displace whatever moisture is left.

When all the acetone has evaporated I would pour Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) into the crack and letting it cure. Use unthickened West System Epoxy, and if you could create a vacuum in the holding tank (as Phil Shedd suggested above) it would help draw the West Epoxy deeper or possibly right through the crack to seal it.

For the next layer use slightly thickened Epoxy, and attempt to draw it into the crack using the holding tank vacuum. Next I would use 1 or 2 layers of fibreglass cloth, fair the area with thickened epoxy or Interlux Watertite and paint with BilgeKoat.

OR, if the crack is in the lower part of your L - shaped holding tank (and I'm not sure I'm picturing it correctly), would it be possible to just fill the lower part of the tank with an Epoxy/filler creating a new bottom to your holding tank? This could solve your seepage issue, but would leave you with a lower capacity holding tank.

Good Luck,

Randy

[Oswego John]

Dean,

What a relief to learn that Martha Stewart won't be coming aboard. Phew

John V. - Could you expand a bit on this thing "Lepidopterous Sex". It sounds a little like something I might be interested in. Does it have anything to do with rejuvenation?

[quote="Dean Abramson"]

Are you saying that you think that regular epoxy would do okay on top of Tolley's? OR, are you suggesting only Tolley's in the holding tank, and only epoxy in the bilge? I could kinda read that either way.

O J - I was thinking of Tolleys inside of the holding tank and some type of two part epoxy and maybe glass cloth outside of the tank, in the bilge.


[Dean - quote]
Now, the reality is that I probably cannot get all moisture out of the recesses of the crack in the holding tank. Would regular epoxy bond better in a moist environment than Tolley's?

O J - My thought is that Tolleys is a water based compound that is used many times in deep cracks that have been subjected to water intrusion. If there is any moisture present, I feel that Tolleys is a better, safer choice than two part epoxy.

While on the subject, someone previously touched on a technique that is often used. You might try to eliminate any residual moisture in the porous bilge area and the crack in the holding tank by heating the bilge with a hair dryer or a heat gun on low heat. At the same time, plug all openings in the tank except one, and in that opening place the hose of a shop vacuum. In this manner, you might induce a heated flow of air that possibly would dry any moisture in the air flow's path.

[Quote - Dean]
I am not planning to invite Martha Stewart aboard.

O J - Aw shucks.

Earlier, you asked about "blush".

Blush is an oily residue that forms on the cured surface of epoxy under some conditions. This amine blush, or "bloom" forms when the amines in the hardener react with carbon dioxide and moisture that is in the air. (Humidity)

It can appear as a waxlike film on cured epoxy surfaces. The same components that promote strength and toughness also contribute to the formation of blush. So it is a good thing for it to appear.

After the epoxy has cured, blush can be removed with a Scotch-brite pad and plain water. The pad also abrades the shiny surface of the cured epoxy for tooth. Detergents and solvents are neither required nor recommended for it's removal.

Blush clogs sndpaper. Cured epoxy snds much better after it has been washed. Blush can cause adhesion problems with additional coatings over it. It also can interfere with the cure of some paints, varnishes and all polyester *GEL COATS*.

I wonder if I can Google Lepidopterous?
O J

[Jim Davis]

After reading all the comments let me suggest Denatured Alcohol in place of the Acetone. It isn't as flammable and using hair dryers and shop vacks there are sparks in the motors. You might also try the reverse of vaccumn bagging and use the shop vac to put a slight pressure on the tank. Do this first while there is alcohol in the tank to try and get some in the crack, then after doing an epoxy pour put the tank under slight pressure to try and drive the epoxy into and perhaps through the crack. Not a lot of pressure, I'm thinking use rags to hold the hose in place so a lot of the air can escape.

As I said just a couple thoughts.

Good luck and a wise idea to not invite Martha Stewart along for a cruise.

[Dean Abramson]

...well, I was hoping for better at this point.

You can see the saga at:
http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/moreboatfun/index.html

Basically, it shows some tools, then: 2 shots as things were, 2 with just straight epoxy, 2 with addition of thickened epoxy (primarily on slanted surfaces). Then it shows the dyed water test, from the bilge side, with the water trickiing from a spot at upper left; the water sitting on the botom all came from that spot. I seem to have eliminated whatever passage was feeding water to the bilge bottom.

If you look at how the bulkhead is not even tabbed inside the holding tank, I am amazed that not ALL of these leak!

By the way, I used a very wide angle lens: by getting its front element right in the holding tank's inspection port, I was able to see much more than I could with my eyes. Unfortunately, the engine bed prevented me from turning the camera vertical so as to get holding tank shots which show all the way aft. The white blob is the light bulb I had to lower in, in order to see and photograph.

My question for now: when I use colloidal silica in order to get the epoxy to stick on vertical surfaces, does that make it porous and therefore does not seal as well? I will need it pretty thick to do the vertical seams. (See the web page.)

Note: after using a half gallon of bleach disinfecting, there is not anything gross about this job. It IS wicked awkward and time-consuming, though, and will probably require more home-made tools to be created. But you can (sort of) work in there.

But will it work?

Man, this sure beats sailing!

Not.

Dean

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Dean:

I may be the only one with this problem, but when I click on your site in your post, I get the printed word (large print), but the photos are not there. Only very large white boxes each with very small boxes with a red "x" in the upper left hand corner.

I tried going to your photography site independently and accessing the section on "boatfun" but I could not find it.

I know I am dumb when it comes to computers and "the Admiral" is out of town for the next few weeks.

I would not bother you or other members of this board with this trivial matter, except I so much want to look at photos of the inside of your holding tank.

Any suggestions

Fair winds,

[Dean Abramson]

Can't help you, Robert. It works from here.

Give it some time to download.

Or try another browser.

???

Dean

[Michael Abramson]

Abe,
I can't see them on my computer either. Are they hosted on a web site or on your regular site?
Abe

[Dean Abramson]

Robert and my brother Michael/Abe,

Try this alternate version I made with a different software:
http://www.mainephoto.com/folios/moreboatfun/index.html
The problem with this version is that captioning is problematic.

Basically, it shows some tools, then: 2 shots as things were, 2 with just straight epoxy, 2 with addition of thickened epoxy (primarily on slanted surfaces). Then it shows the dyed water test, from the bilge side, with the water trickiing from a spot at upper left; the water sitting on the botom all came from that spot. I seem to have eliminated whatever passage was feeding water to the bilge bottom.

Would others tell me if either of these websites is not working?

Dean (aka Abe also)

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Dean:

Using your most recent website, I was able to view the photos without any problems. They initially show up as small thumbnail photos. You then click on them and they enlarge. At the top of the screen there are arrows to allow you to move through the photos.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to look inside your holding tank. It is a much cherished experience and one I will long remember.

I was initially concerned when I could not view the photos in the other program that I was possibly being discriminated against because of my lack of Cape Dory ownership. However, I then read that you had denied access to your own brother (your own brother )

By the way, from the little I know about it, it seems like you did a great job and some creative "retooling" to get the necessary access.

I remain without a Cape Dory but continue my search. I am planning a trip to R.I. and Ct. to look at a few CD 25Ds and possibly to Ms. to look at a CD 22.

Fair winds,

[bottomscraper]

I can see pictures from your second link but the pictures from your first link appear to be links to your local drive for example here are the properties from one of them:

Code: Select all

file:///Volumes/InternalDrive2/DAP%20PIX/PersonalPix/PersPixHiRes/BoatWorkPix/WebPix/_DSC7254.jpg

[Dean Abramson]

Rich, you are so smart. But I can't seem to fix this right now. So just go with the second version. I changed the original post to send folks to the second version.

Dean

[Michael Abramson]

I can see them fine now. That crack at the bottom certainly looks like it would be the cause of the leakage. I would guess that was a seam from when the holding tank was first moulded, before it was set into the keel. If water froze inside, then the seam would likely be the weakest part and most likely to open up. I am curious to hear what others say after seeing the pix. There might be a case for using fiberglass mat/roving to strengthen the bottom beyond what the epoxy resin will do on its own, but I can see that would be pretty difficult.

I guess you won't be needing that wooden bucket I had picked out for you......

[Dean Abramson]

There really is no "tank" that would have been put in. It's just the hull. The bulkhead is all that separates it from the bilge and makes it function as a tank. The sides of the bilge are also just the hull itself.

Having said that, I hope that the crack is just gelcoat. But there is no sign of a crack on the outside of the hull.

Based on where it comes out on the bilge side, I think my leak is coming from the vertical seam on the starboard side of the bulhead, up a few inches from the bottom of the holding tank. My plan is to epoxy the seams tomorrow. If I can...

Dean