The Yanmar engine plot thickens

[Peter Luquer]

Well I just got a call from the yacht broker who claims their mechanics have been taking care of the engine, Changing oil etc for the past year. Hearing what my surveyor said about water in the engine they sent out a mechanic who started her up and claims the oil is clear and see's no water whatsoever.

Should I enlist yet another surveyor to check the engine?? An engine is something I would not really like to fool with.

Also, should the engine be fine, I'm having her hauled out and Pressure cleaned. Should I concider replacing the prop with a new 3 eared screw??? I have read it adds a little speed and maneuverability.

Any advise helpful

thanks



PLuquer@ilx.com

[Gary L.]

Well I just got a call from the yacht broker who claims their mechanics have been taking care of the engine, Changing oil etc for the past year. Hearing what my surveyor said about water in the engine they sent out a mechanic who started her up and claims the oil is clear and see's no water whatsoever.

Should I enlist yet another surveyor to check the engine?? An engine is something I would not really like to fool with.

Also, should the engine be fine, I'm having her hauled out and Pressure cleaned. Should I concider replacing the prop with a new 3 eared screw??? I have read it adds a little speed and maneuverability.

Any advise helpful

thanks

Peter,

Reading your posts, it looks like you are truly sold on this boat. But, there are many unasked and unanswered questions, like: How much time did the surveyor spend with the boat? Did he take it out for a sail? motor it about? Did you go out with him? or with the present owners? Do you feel that the boatyard is honest? How long have they maintained the boat? Do they or the owner have records?

Then, ask yourself some questions. What is your sailing area like? Will you need to motor to sailing grounds? (i.e. I have to motor about 1/2 hr to get to sailing area.) Will you likely sail a great deal away from your local areas?

Finally, document everyone. You have the surveyor's report, get a certified copy of the boatyard report. If something goes "south", then you might be able to recoup some of the loss in small claims court or such.

In the end, it is what you feel is right. Buy the boat, and get out there sailing.

Fair winds,

Gary Lapine
Red Witch III
CD30C, #339
Somerset, MA



dory@attbi.com

[Clay Stalker]

Well I just got a call from the yacht broker who claims their mechanics have been taking care of the engine, Changing oil etc for the past year. Hearing what my surveyor said about water in the engine they sent out a mechanic who started her up and claims the oil is clear and see's no water whatsoever.

Should I enlist yet another surveyor to check the engine?? An engine is something I would not really like to fool with.

Also, should the engine be fine, I'm having her hauled out and Pressure cleaned. Should I concider replacing the prop with a new 3 eared screw??? I have read it adds a little speed and maneuverability.

Any advise helpful

thanks

Peter:

Sounds like you need the services of an independent, non-connected mechanic to check the engine. You might also want to consider an oil analysis, which should tell you the condition of the engine and whether water is present. It certainly is possible to make a mistake with this kind of diagnosis, but this doesn't help you any, and you really need to know, because water in the oil is a substantial issue. As for the prop, the change to a 3-blader made a huge difference in power...I highly recommend it, especially with the 8Hp engine. Some say you pay a price in sailing performance, and you probably do, but I can't tell...winds and tide play a greater role, and I rarely if ever race....so....Where are you located?

Clay Stalker



cstalker@cheshire.net

[Boyd]

Hi Peter...

I agree with Clay and would amplify what he says...

I bought Tern under the same circumstances... conflicting info about the engine. I elected to buy the boat anyway and figured in a rebuild in the price... which I had to do very soon. Water in the oil is serious. A good oil anlaysis should indicate if it is seawater or water/glycol and hence the source. I have found that almost any indicator of failure is just the tip of the iceburg there are usually other things wrong you cannot easily discover. A good independent engine survey should tell a lot. When I bought Tern the broker and his mechanic swore that there was nothing wrong with the engine and the water in the oil on the analysis was just a fluke. The compression was low and the engine had a slow overheat problem.. but according to them it was fine. I negotiated hard a lower price anyway.

From my experience with several brokers.... I would not take as authentic a single word they say. Go with what an independent mechanic that you find by yourself (never go with the brokers recommendation) has to say. Have him do the diagnostics and give only you a report. Dont share it with the broker unless you want to. There is way to much collusion among the brokers and boat yard people. This has been my experience not my speculation.

I think its ok to buy the boat if you really like her... just dont overpay. Then set about to fix the problems left by the PO.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MKII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Well I just got a call from the yacht broker who claims their mechanics have been taking care of the engine, Changing oil etc for the past year. Hearing what my surveyor said about water in the engine they sent out a mechanic who started her up and claims the oil is clear and see's no water whatsoever.

Should I enlist yet another surveyor to check the engine?? An engine is something I would not really like to fool with.

Also, should the engine be fine, I'm having her hauled out and Pressure cleaned. Should I concider replacing the prop with a new 3 eared screw??? I have read it adds a little speed and maneuverability.

Any advise helpful

thanks

Peter:

Sounds like you need the services of an independent, non-connected mechanic to check the engine. You might also want to consider an oil analysis, which should tell you the condition of the engine and whether water is present. It certainly is possible to make a mistake with this kind of diagnosis, but this doesn't help you any, and you really need to know, because water in the oil is a substantial issue. As for the prop, the change to a 3-blader made a huge difference in power...I highly recommend it, especially with the 8Hp engine. Some say you pay a price in sailing performance, and you probably do, but I can't tell...winds and tide play a greater role, and I rarely if ever race....so....Where are you located?

Clay Stalker

Boyd@wbta.cc

[brian]

Water in the oil is REAL obvious. If it looks like a coffee milk shake then you have water.

I'm surprised your surveyor checked the engine that closely. Most of the time they do a visual and that's it.

My advice like most things you'll find in owning a boat-if you want the answer or the job done correctly go down and look for yourself. Bring an oil pump, pull some oil out. Smell it(for diesel) , feel it(metal filings) look at it (should be black as night unless they just changed it) etc.. Then start it up and hang out for a while. bring a mirror and a flash light to look under the engine and in the engine pan. Check the transmission oil too.

Did you pay for an engine survey?





brian@HarvardThermal.com

[Matt Cawthorne]

Peter,?br? If you really want this boat get a really good engine shop to do an engine survey. I do not know the owners, but for your own protection assume that they are lying. The broker just knows what the owner tells him. I bought my dory in the winter and there were a few systems that could not be checked with the boat out of the water. The surveyor suggested an escrow account. The owner swore that these systems were all working correctly and refused to budge. I bought the boat. When the boat was launched every one of the systems that could not be checked turned out to be broken. Yes, this included the air conditioner, the head, and the water heater. It ended up costing me lots of dollars. The engine is expensive, and a critical piece of equipment. It is a buyer beware environment. BEWARE!?p?matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[Bob B.]

Peter,
Sounds like the other opinion is the way to go. Hope it works out.

I would question the 3 blade prop on the small 8hp Yanmar. That engine is doing about all it can to push the 2 blade prop through the water with your 27. A 3 blade prop may be more than the engine can handle. Ask your mechanic about this as he checks the engine. One of our major problems with our 27 with the 8hp was that we would overload the engine and the combustion was not clean, a little carbon in the exhaust. No problem, but you could tell when it was being pushed beyond capacity.

Hope it works out to where you get a great boat.

Bob B.
CD25D Tiva
Charleston, SC



BundyR@aol.com

[Warren Kaplan]

Peter,
Sounds like the other opinion is the way to go. Hope it works out.

I would question the 3 blade prop on the small 8hp Yanmar. That engine is doing about all it can to push the 2 blade prop through the water with your 27. A 3 blade prop may be more than the engine can handle. Ask your mechanic about this as he checks the engine. One of our major problems with our 27 with the 8hp was that we would overload the engine and the combustion was not clean, a little carbon in the exhaust. No problem, but you could tell when it was being pushed beyond capacity.

Hope it works out to where you get a great boat.

Bob B.
CD25D Tiva
Charleston, SC

I've got a 3 bladed prop on my 1980 CD27 that has a YSM8 engine. Works just fine. The previous owner was the one to switch from the two bladed to the three bladed prop and he said it made a big difference in performance under power.
Some other comments on the YSM8. Many have read my comments about the ruptured oil line I had to deal with earlier in the year. Without rehashing the whole thing, I was ready to repower with a larger engine (Yanmar 2GM20F). The mechanic replaced the line and the engine runs better than it ever has since I've owned the boat. Its a "one lunger" so its a little noisy and it vibrates some, but it isn't too bad if the engine is "tuned" and running well. I found that out this year. The power is just fine under normal circumstances but if you have to run into heavy current and/or chop there is no doubt that a larger engine would help out alot. But repowering with a Yanmar 2GM20F, at least on Long Island is gonna' run about 10 grand installed by the time you're finished. So, think about the type of sailing you'll be doing. Are you going to be motoring alot? Does your area have alot of stong currents you may have to buck and is the water often choppy, or is it protected pretty much. Get a certified Yanmar mechanic who knows the old YS series engines to look at it. Maybe you can fix the engine. My engine is 22 years old and now its running fine because I finally got a real good diesel mechanic to work on it. If there is too much wrong with it to be worth spending the money on, then I would definitely repower with the 2GM20F.

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)
Oyster Bay Harbor, New York



Setsail728@aol.com

[yves feder W1UX]

Peter,
Sounds like the other opinion is the way to go. Hope it works out.

I would question the 3 blade prop on the small 8hp Yanmar. That engine is doing about all it can to push the 2 blade prop through the water with your 27. A 3 blade prop may be more than the engine can handle. Ask your mechanic about this as he checks the engine. One of our major problems with our 27 with the 8hp was that we would overload the engine and the combustion was not clean, a little carbon in the exhaust. No problem, but you could tell when it was being pushed beyond capacity.

Hope it works out to where you get a great boat.

Bob B.
CD25D Tiva
Charleston, SC

I've got a 3 bladed prop on my 1980 CD27 that has a YSM8 engine. Works just fine. The previous owner was the one to switch from the two bladed to the three bladed prop and he said it made a big difference in performance under power.
Some other comments on the YSM8. Many have read my comments about the ruptured oil line I had to deal with earlier in the year. Without rehashing the whole thing, I was ready to repower with a larger engine (Yanmar 2GM20F). The mechanic replaced the line and the engine runs better than it ever has since I've owned the boat. Its a "one lunger" so its a little noisy and it vibrates some, but it isn't too bad if the engine is "tuned" and running well. I found that out this year. The power is just fine under normal circumstances but if you have to run into heavy current and/or chop there is no doubt that a larger engine would help out alot. But repowering with a Yanmar 2GM20F, at least on Long Island is gonna' run about 10 grand installed by the time you're finished. So, think about the type of sailing you'll be doing. Are you going to be motoring alot? Does your area have alot of stong currents you may have to buck and is the water often choppy, or is it protected pretty much. Get a certified Yanmar mechanic who knows the old YS series engines to look at it. Maybe you can fix the engine. My engine is 22 years old and now its running fine because I finally got a real good diesel mechanic to work on it. If there is too much wrong with it to be worth spending the money on, then I would definitely repower with the 2GM20F.

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)
Oyster Bay Harbor, New York

Ditto here! Overloading engine depends on surface area, pitch, camber, all the 3D factors that go into designing blade geometry - nothing to do with # of blades. Why go to 3 blades instead of 2? To achieve same performance with 2 blades might mean a total diameter too large for prop aperture; this is the case with CD27. So for 12" dia., our 3 bladed wheel did the increase we needed. Check out
the link to see the math involved for various cases you can play with.
Best of luck!
Yves
S/V "Alphee" (18) CD27 #4 (1977)




saltwater@tinyradio.com

[Ken Cave]

You are right about honest brokers. They are out there, but where to find them is a good question.

I tried purchasing a Cape Dory 25 in Anacortes from a local broker. Had it surveyed and engine gone through by a service tech at our local Junior College.

Found that the owner hadn't done a thing since he purchased it (1983) except let it sit at the marina and get dirty. Even the sails had pin holes all over them as wasps found a way to nest in there.

Most of the stuff I could live with, except for the engine. The entire bottom was a pile of rust due to the water pump leaking all over. There was no oil in the transmission, etc. etc. etc.

The owner would not let a mechanic repair the engine (at his expense)-so I bailed on the boat.

Even though I gave a copy of the survey to the broker, he tried to sell it to at least four other folks who who did their own survey, until a fifth person purchased it without a survey.

The salesman that I was working with was so disgusted with the broker that he quit the business!!

Hope this helps

Ken Cave
CD 28 #227
Anacortes, WA



bcave@whidbey.net

[Peter Luquer]

Thanks folks again for all your advice. I agree with all that everyone has said. I believe the broker dealer to be pretty reputable although I maintain a healthy scepticism. I have found a mechanic familiar with Yanmar who is going over tomorrow to run the engine for 1/2 hour and get an oil sample sent to a lab. I think this should be a good tell tale.

I'll let you all know when the results come in!!

If anyone has any more comments please let me know!

Thanks again,


Peter
Peter



PLuquer@ilx.com

[Robin Meigel]

I purchased my 1979 CD 27 5 years ago. The boat survey included a test drive and the boat surveyor picked up on engine stuff as a result. While I didn't have a formal engine survey, I did have an independent mechanic do a compression test. That plus the test drive told me I'd be overhauling or repowering, so I factored that into the offer price. Repowering would have run around $9,000 installed; I opted for the overhaul at $2500. Also, I added a 3 bladed prop. My mechanic says now that the prop may be "a touch" oversized, but I haven't seen a problem in the exhaust. (I don't have an RPM meter.)

Repowering is a big number relative to the market value of these older boats. My overhauled engine now has 430 hours on her and is ticking along fine. Make sure, if you go for the overhaul, that you have the cylinder re-torqued at the 50 hour mark. Otherwise, you may have a head gasket problem later.

The biggest advantage of the 3 bladed prop for me is that when I need to slow or stop the boat dramatically, I can do it.

Powering against headwinds and current is not my favorite thing to do. And I have been out in conditions on the Chesapeake Bay which were too much for the engine. You just power your nose into the wind or tuck into shelter and wait it out. As recreational sailors, however, we can usually plan our fun around the weather. I decided that I didn't plan to recreate in winds and current that required repowering and used the extra funds for other things.

As and when I buy my next boat, I'll pay for an independent engine survey if, on the surface, there is no reason to think the engine is in real bad shape. The value of an engine survey is uncovering the sleeper issues. In my case the need for an overhaul was obvious and there were no later surprises.

Robin Meigel
1979 CD 27
"Pacem"

[Peter Luquer]

Alas it looks like this 27''s yanmar is in too poor a shape to warrant a re-build, and I fear I don't have enought $ to replace it with a new one.

I am looking at another Friday morning on the Hudson river just N of NY city. Anyone think $19,000 is too much to ask?? I have a freind who owns a boatyard and he claims 19K is too much.

I have seen a listing on this board and in Yacht-world.com about a nicely equiped 25D for 16K. Are there huge differences between the 27' and the 25'?? if so waht are the major advantages of one vs. the other??



PLuquer@ILX.COM