.......the link below is to a discussion thread on the CWBB re Bristol Finish......there have been many....
The experiences of those posters echo my own. The conclusion that the stuff is not the "Magic Bullet" is borne out by my own experiences....
I still think that a primer / sealer coat (over bare wood) of epoxy will eliminate these experiences. I have also started a test using it over properly varnished wood.....
Additionally I am testing Decto's Crystal Varnish......a no sand between coats fast build high uv filter varnish of a more traditional formulation.... I'll post results after the scorching summer season....
Happy Brightwork,
John
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Oriental, NC
aimless(xxx)@nc.rr.com
Bristol Finish .......revisited.......
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
John R.
Re: Bristol Finish .......revisited.......
Interesting thread John. I note that not one person indicates they followed BF's instructions to the letter and also that *reducer* (solvent) issues seem to be the common denominator with the problems some of them indicated. I have never had problems with bubbling but have had those problems with thinned varnish on occassion. Usually bubbling is a result of trapped solvents rising to the surface and trying to escape but become trapped in the curing finish. You can frequently see that happen when using epoxy on bare wood since it's viscosity is so thick trapped air and solvent vapors frequently don't escape.
I particularly note the comments from one writer regarding regular bristle brushes over foam. My experience with Bristol is exactly 180 degrees the opposite, I have never had any problems with quality foam brushes. They actually made application of the thinned finish far easier.
I think this product along with most others react in many different ways depending on the user and their application techniques.
By the way good luck with the Detco, you might want to try Epiphanes Woodfinish Gloss at the same time and see how they compare. The Woodfinish is also a no sand between coats finish.
I particularly note the comments from one writer regarding regular bristle brushes over foam. My experience with Bristol is exactly 180 degrees the opposite, I have never had any problems with quality foam brushes. They actually made application of the thinned finish far easier.
I think this product along with most others react in many different ways depending on the user and their application techniques.
By the way good luck with the Detco, you might want to try Epiphanes Woodfinish Gloss at the same time and see how they compare. The Woodfinish is also a no sand between coats finish.
John Nuttall wrote: .......the link below is to a discussion thread on the CWBB re Bristol Finish......there have been many....
The experiences of those posters echo my own. The conclusion that the stuff is not the "Magic Bullet" is borne out by my own experiences....
I still think that a primer / sealer coat (over bare wood) of epoxy will eliminate these experiences. I have also started a test using it over properly varnished wood.....
Additionally I am testing Decto's Crystal Varnish......a no sand between coats fast build high uv filter varnish of a more traditional formulation.... I'll post results after the scorching summer season....
Happy Brightwork,
John
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Oriental, NC
-
John Nuttall
Epi Woodfinish Gloss
I have ordered some Epi WF Gloss and intend to try it too.......John R. wrote: Hello John,
As you can see I am still vexed by this BF product. My applications ran the gamut of levels of reducer added, and I always got bubbles. I used a $25 natural brisle brush, and the first coats appeared to soak right in (the thinned BF seemed thinner than water - if thats possible). I am pretty sure the hairline cracks I am seeing scattered about my coaming boards (about 1/2 long) are connected to the bubbles. One would think that 7 coats of the stuff would seal off any pinholes associated with the bubbles.......
Bubbling epoxy (I have recently learned) may stem from thinning what is basically a bonding epoxy (West, MAAS, SYS3) in order to use it as a sealer. The folks at Smith & Co. (who win the PS test) explained to me that the primer coat (CPES-Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer)in their system is an epoxy specially formulated to penetrate way down into the wood (similar to "git-rot") and minimize the off gassing. It also presents a better bonding surface (on a molecular level) for their top coat (5 Year Clear) or traditional varnish (the majority of the guys on the Wooden Boat Forum swear by this stuff under varnish or paint)
I still feel the stuff has merit, just that it is NOT as easy to get the results that BF claims. Look at it this way. When I did the bowsprit, it was a beautiful bluebird NC day. 75 degrees, moderate humidity, December sun (low angle - not hot), light breeze <5 knots. I used the max reducer so it wouldnt kick too fast, and I still got bubbles from (presumably) it's own trapped solvents. Those are great conditions, and I got poor results. I'd be remiss here if I did not mention that the cockpit table which I did in the shop is fine.
I'd be real interested to hear comments from anyone who has applied Honey Teak to their brightwork. I am curious about that stuff. John, have you gotten around to trying it yet???
Off to the coast now, sailmaker says my new Asymetrical is cut. Can't wait to see it.....
John
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Oriental, NC
-
John R.
Re: Epi Woodfinish Gloss
John,
You will find the Woodfinish Gloss to be very viscous, it definitely needs thinning (use the recommended thinner only)or you will get brush marks unless my experience with it here in Florida is simply a result of the heat and the stuff kicking to fast. I will be interested in hearing your comments on your results with it. I have a love / hate opinion of it.
About Bristol Finish........ can you even begin to figure out why the table was without problems but the coamings had problems? Did you talk to the guys at Bristol as to why there would be such a difference in results? It almost sounds like there was chemical contamination in the coaming wood; I know you are thorough in prep but maybe something still remained deep in the grain. You stated that after seven coats the bubbles were still there. Were they actual bubbles after seven coats or just fisheyes (voids) where the bubbles had been? If they are just voids I would seriously suspect contamination. If inded they are closed bubbles thenit seems like the first or second coat cured way too fast or perhaps you didn't wait long enough between coats. The guy on the CW site said his bubbles "melted" away with subsequent coats. Was the table new wood or old? Was it prepped exactly the same way?
I think the bristle brushes can be part of the problem. Brushes unless fully saturated will release more air into an applied finish than a foam brush will, especially when spreading or feathering a wet edge. Being that BF cures so rapidly I have a hunch you are simply seeing the results of excessive air being introduced and trapped. Keep in mind that I have not had any bubbling problems with BF, I'm in a high humidity, high temp area. I first tried one of my badger hair varnish brushes when I first got BF and found it was way to difficult to spread the finish evenly and quickly because of it's thinness without introducing runs and sags. I immediately switched to quality "Redtree" high density foam brushes. I find these brushes to work exceptionally well with BF, especially if the BF is thinned which should usually be the case.
Your point about the BF seemingly being "thinner than water" after adding reducer is about right in my observations. It becomes very thin because it is pretty thin to begin with. This is where the Redtree brushes come in. I quickly brush out the BF when I apply it, I do not flow it on. I especially take extra measures to brush it out fully on vertical surfaces or on different types of edges. If I don't do that I will get sags, runs or pooling. I use max reducer. I've even gone beyond maximum recommended and it is still fine until about 20% beyond the max limit and then the finish starts cyring with a very slight craze or wrinkle, ruining the deep gloss.
The bubbling epoxy that I have experienced has been when using West at times (not always). I have never thinned the epoxy. My assumption is that it goes off before all trapped air has escaped.
I know nothing about the use of CPES, I only know what I read about it from various sources. I hear good things but have absolutely zero experience with using it. I've certainly used plenty of Git Rot in the past and if it is that thin then for sure it would do serious penetration into the wood and seal it off, but so should BF because of it's thinness. Maybe the CPES is what you need to try. I may look into doing it myself on some stuff. It seems it would not be real effective on healthy teak that is full of resins but could be extremely helpful on older dried out woods. Certainly it would facilitate one hell of a tooth and bond. The more I think of that potential bond the more I like it. The more grip any top finish can get the better. The loss of grip is why clear Awlgrip has such a miserable failure rate, it looks gorgeous until the grip fails, the finish is fine and yet it will peel off in sheets. Maybe CPES under it would be a fabulous finish?
No, I haven't used Honey Teak. I looked into it initially but it was a little too dark for my taste and it was quite a bit more costly and it was more complicated in application, so I passed on it and went with BF. I spoke to Tom Fabula at HT for seemingly a long time asking all sorts of questions and it seems by comparing to BF we are essentially talking about the same finishes aside from color and application process. They are both *acrylic urethanes*.
I imagine if you make a post to "Zeida's" attention she will be more than happy to discuss her experience with HT. She has it on her 33 and has been using it for several years. I have no idea if she has ever had bubbling issues with it. She never mentioned any bubbling to me in all our correspondence about the HT. I'm not sure what her procedure is in the preparation steps before applying it. I think the 33 already had the HT on it when she bought it and she just does the maintenance process, though I'm not sure on that point. You can see what it looks like on her website, just look for one of her past postings on this board where she links to her boats website. The boat is in Miami and so gets the brunt of what our weather here dishes out to brightwork.
You will love your asymetrical I am sure. I have the UK with sock in a rainbow panel scheme and it is a site to see flying. You will enjoy that sail.
You will find the Woodfinish Gloss to be very viscous, it definitely needs thinning (use the recommended thinner only)or you will get brush marks unless my experience with it here in Florida is simply a result of the heat and the stuff kicking to fast. I will be interested in hearing your comments on your results with it. I have a love / hate opinion of it.
About Bristol Finish........ can you even begin to figure out why the table was without problems but the coamings had problems? Did you talk to the guys at Bristol as to why there would be such a difference in results? It almost sounds like there was chemical contamination in the coaming wood; I know you are thorough in prep but maybe something still remained deep in the grain. You stated that after seven coats the bubbles were still there. Were they actual bubbles after seven coats or just fisheyes (voids) where the bubbles had been? If they are just voids I would seriously suspect contamination. If inded they are closed bubbles thenit seems like the first or second coat cured way too fast or perhaps you didn't wait long enough between coats. The guy on the CW site said his bubbles "melted" away with subsequent coats. Was the table new wood or old? Was it prepped exactly the same way?
I think the bristle brushes can be part of the problem. Brushes unless fully saturated will release more air into an applied finish than a foam brush will, especially when spreading or feathering a wet edge. Being that BF cures so rapidly I have a hunch you are simply seeing the results of excessive air being introduced and trapped. Keep in mind that I have not had any bubbling problems with BF, I'm in a high humidity, high temp area. I first tried one of my badger hair varnish brushes when I first got BF and found it was way to difficult to spread the finish evenly and quickly because of it's thinness without introducing runs and sags. I immediately switched to quality "Redtree" high density foam brushes. I find these brushes to work exceptionally well with BF, especially if the BF is thinned which should usually be the case.
Your point about the BF seemingly being "thinner than water" after adding reducer is about right in my observations. It becomes very thin because it is pretty thin to begin with. This is where the Redtree brushes come in. I quickly brush out the BF when I apply it, I do not flow it on. I especially take extra measures to brush it out fully on vertical surfaces or on different types of edges. If I don't do that I will get sags, runs or pooling. I use max reducer. I've even gone beyond maximum recommended and it is still fine until about 20% beyond the max limit and then the finish starts cyring with a very slight craze or wrinkle, ruining the deep gloss.
The bubbling epoxy that I have experienced has been when using West at times (not always). I have never thinned the epoxy. My assumption is that it goes off before all trapped air has escaped.
I know nothing about the use of CPES, I only know what I read about it from various sources. I hear good things but have absolutely zero experience with using it. I've certainly used plenty of Git Rot in the past and if it is that thin then for sure it would do serious penetration into the wood and seal it off, but so should BF because of it's thinness. Maybe the CPES is what you need to try. I may look into doing it myself on some stuff. It seems it would not be real effective on healthy teak that is full of resins but could be extremely helpful on older dried out woods. Certainly it would facilitate one hell of a tooth and bond. The more I think of that potential bond the more I like it. The more grip any top finish can get the better. The loss of grip is why clear Awlgrip has such a miserable failure rate, it looks gorgeous until the grip fails, the finish is fine and yet it will peel off in sheets. Maybe CPES under it would be a fabulous finish?
No, I haven't used Honey Teak. I looked into it initially but it was a little too dark for my taste and it was quite a bit more costly and it was more complicated in application, so I passed on it and went with BF. I spoke to Tom Fabula at HT for seemingly a long time asking all sorts of questions and it seems by comparing to BF we are essentially talking about the same finishes aside from color and application process. They are both *acrylic urethanes*.
I imagine if you make a post to "Zeida's" attention she will be more than happy to discuss her experience with HT. She has it on her 33 and has been using it for several years. I have no idea if she has ever had bubbling issues with it. She never mentioned any bubbling to me in all our correspondence about the HT. I'm not sure what her procedure is in the preparation steps before applying it. I think the 33 already had the HT on it when she bought it and she just does the maintenance process, though I'm not sure on that point. You can see what it looks like on her website, just look for one of her past postings on this board where she links to her boats website. The boat is in Miami and so gets the brunt of what our weather here dishes out to brightwork.
You will love your asymetrical I am sure. I have the UK with sock in a rainbow panel scheme and it is a site to see flying. You will enjoy that sail.
John Nuttall wrote:I have ordered some Epi WF Gloss and intend to try it too.......John R. wrote: Hello John,
As you can see I am still vexed by this BF product. My applications ran the gamut of levels of reducer added, and I always got bubbles. I used a $25 natural brisle brush, and the first coats appeared to soak right in (the thinned BF seemed thinner than water - if thats possible). I am pretty sure the hairline cracks I am seeing scattered about my coaming boards (about 1/2 long) are connected to the bubbles. One would think that 7 coats of the stuff would seal off any pinholes associated with the bubbles.......
Bubbling epoxy (I have recently learned) may stem from thinning what is basically a bonding epoxy (West, MAAS, SYS3) in order to use it as a sealer. The folks at Smith & Co. (who win the PS test) explained to me that the primer coat (CPES-Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer)in their system is an epoxy specially formulated to penetrate way down into the wood (similar to "git-rot") and minimize the off gassing. It also presents a better bonding surface (on a molecular level) for their top coat (5 Year Clear) or traditional varnish (the majority of the guys on the Wooden Boat Forum swear by this stuff under varnish or paint)
I still feel the stuff has merit, just that it is NOT as easy to get the results that BF claims. Look at it this way. When I did the bowsprit, it was a beautiful bluebird NC day. 75 degrees, moderate humidity, December sun (low angle - not hot), light breeze <5 knots. I used the max reducer so it wouldnt kick too fast, and I still got bubbles from (presumably) it's own trapped solvents. Those are great conditions, and I got poor results. I'd be remiss here if I did not mention that the cockpit table which I did in the shop is fine.
I'd be real interested to hear comments from anyone who has applied Honey Teak to their brightwork. I am curious about that stuff. John, have you gotten around to trying it yet???
Off to the coast now, sailmaker says my new Asymetrical is cut. Can't wait to see it.....
John
s/v Aimless
CD31 #28
Oriental, NC
-
Ed Haley
Re: Epi Woodfinish Gloss
The secret to the prevention of bubbles, as I have found this past week, is to use 1 part reducer (recommended in temps below 70 degrees) and to apply the BF when the temperature starts to drop (mid-afternoon). After using this technique, there were no bubbles forming.
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
-
Ed Haley
Re: Epi Woodfinish Gloss
The secret to the prevention of bubbles, as I have found this past week, is to use 1 part reducer (recommended in temps below 70 degrees) and to apply the BF when the temperature starts to drop (mid-afternoon). After using this technique, there were no bubbles forming.
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com