Let's get back to PROBLEM SOLVING

[Michael Heintz]

Let's get back to the reason we love this board...Problem solving!!!!

Here's one for you. I have consulted many including this board, about this problem.

I need a solution.

Problem stated: On my CD 30 MK II with a Westerbeke 21 a

After sailing hard on a port tack for any length of time, the engine will not start. I always have to level out the boat and wait before she will start. It will crank & crank & crank, but will not start. She will always eventually start, but not without leveling out, or going over to a starboard tack.

Facts:
While on a port tack, fuel tank rides on the high side (tank on port side)
Under any other conditions the engine always starts.
This happens whether tank is full or partially filled.
Assume good fuel, clean filters.

Is this a function of engine not getting fuel? Is this a function of picking up air in the system?

I need a solution...or a series of tests that will produce a solution.

Thanks,

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II



mzenith@aol.com

[Ron Brassord]

I recently solved a very similiar problem with my small relatively new diesel that would stall when wave action caused the boat to pitch forward. After much anguish,changing of fuel feed system, and filters,the problem was finaly isolated to the racor fuel filter and it's placement. We eliminated any possibilty of a fuel line leak, but still air was stalling the engine[this would always happen as we were surfing into our inlet on a steep following sea entering the breakwaters]It was developed that air in the fuel itself caused by surging in the tank I guess was the culprit. This gathered in the dome of the filter and went tipped, the bubble traveled to the small enginesufficient to stall it.Also, the filter was set above the engine, which made a loop in the line contributing to the bubble of air. The remedy was a new Racor with a feed out of the top[supplied free by Racor as a replacement]and lowering the whole unit below the intake on the engine. Problem solved and there has never benn a bit more trouble.
It took months to solve this one, with advise from many 'experts'. It was Racor who provided the key to the problem. No one would accept that air could build up in the fuel itself, but it did, and enough to affect a very small engine.
Like a lot of big problems, the solution was so simple, no one saw it.
Good luck, and I hope I've helped
Ron Brassord Lighthouse Pt. Fl.

Let's get back to the reason we love this board...Problem solving!!!!

Here's one for you. I have consulted many including this board, about this problem.

I need a solution.

Problem stated: On my CD 30 MK II with a Westerbeke 21 a

After sailing hard on a port tack for any length of time, the engine will not start. I always have to level out the boat and wait before she will start. It will crank & crank & crank, but will not start. She will always eventually start, but not without leveling out, or going over to a starboard tack.

Facts:
While on a port tack, fuel tank rides on the high side (tank on port side)
Under any other conditions the engine always starts.
This happens whether tank is full or partially filled.
Assume good fuel, clean filters.

Is this a function of engine not getting fuel? Is this a function of picking up air in the system?

I need a solution...or a series of tests that will produce a solution.

Thanks,

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II

[Hanalei]

Captain Heintz,

I would recommend that you always sail on Starboard tack. Particularly during the race! From the start line towards the finish, Starboard tack will run you hard aground on Fisher's Island in a short period of time! This of course will make you late for the awards dinner in Watch Hill, BUT, your engine WILL start!!!!

How's that? ? ? Of course, to get home, you will have to sail completely around the world, but that might be fun!

Hanalei

[Larry DeMers]

Heheheh...:^) Well you guys got my old face smiling today! Hee.. Starboard tack..around the world. >ROTFL<!

Tanx fer da smile,
Larry

Captain Heintz,

I would recommend that you always sail on Starboard tack. Particularly during the race! From the start line towards the finish, Starboard tack will run you hard aground on Fisher's Island in a short period of time! This of course will make you late for the awards dinner in Watch Hill, BUT, your engine WILL start!!!!

How's that? ? ? Of course, to get home, you will have to sail completely around the world, but that might be fun!

Hanalei

demers@Sgi.com

[Ken Coit]

What an amazing board this is!

Ken

I recently solved a very similiar problem with my small relatively new diesel that would stall when wave action caused the boat to pitch forward. After much anguish,changing of fuel feed system, and filters,the problem was finaly isolated to the racor fuel filter and it's placement. We eliminated any possibilty of a fuel line leak, but still air was stalling the engine[this would always happen as we were surfing into our inlet on a steep following sea entering the breakwaters]It was developed that air in the fuel itself caused by surging in the tank I guess was the culprit. This gathered in the dome of the filter and went tipped, the bubble traveled to the small enginesufficient to stall it.Also, the filter was set above the engine, which made a loop in the line contributing to the bubble of air. The remedy was a new Racor with a feed out of the top[supplied free by Racor as a replacement]and lowering the whole unit below the intake on the engine. Problem solved and there has never benn a bit more trouble.
It took months to solve this one, with advise from many 'experts'. It was Racor who provided the key to the problem. No one would accept that air could build up in the fuel itself, but it did, and enough to affect a very small engine.
Like a lot of big problems, the solution was so simple, no one saw it.
Good luck, and I hope I've helped
Ron Brassord Lighthouse Pt. Fl.

Let's get back to the reason we love this board...Problem solving!!!!

Here's one for you. I have consulted many including this board, about this problem.

I need a solution.

Problem stated: On my CD 30 MK II with a Westerbeke 21 a

After sailing hard on a port tack for any length of time, the engine will not start. I always have to level out the boat and wait before she will start. It will crank & crank & crank, but will not start. She will always eventually start, but not without leveling out, or going over to a starboard tack.

Facts:
While on a port tack, fuel tank rides on the high side (tank on port side)
Under any other conditions the engine always starts.
This happens whether tank is full or partially filled.
Assume good fuel, clean filters.

Is this a function of engine not getting fuel? Is this a function of picking up air in the system?

I need a solution...or a series of tests that will produce a solution.

Thanks,

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II

PPPparfait@nc.rr.com

[len]

michael

if a lot of air gets in the system, the engine won't start without bleeding so i can't believe a lot of air in the fuel line is the problem - sounds like the engine doesn't get any fuel when heeled on the port tack - ? you can easily change the fuel line from the tank or filter to the engine, perhaps run it lower - sounds like a very annoying problem

len



md.frel@nwh.org

[larry DeMers]

Mike,
Well sure..and lets start out with an easy one too! hee..;^)
Ok, what Ron wrote may give us some clues here. But as I read your note, the problem was with starting the engine, not keeping it running after it starts up ..right?
The engine should have 30 sec. of run on just the fuel in the system already, before succumbing to air lock or whatever affect happens when you get up on the port tack.

Ok..so it sounds like the fuel in the path from the primary engine mounted filter to the high pressure pump is being affected, or the high pressure pump itself..hmm. That is a sealed system, so fuel will not just leak out, nor will air just get in.

Ahh Hah! A clue was given. You said the engine does not start when heeled on port tack. How far over on port tack are you?
Are you aware that the engines oil pressure pickup tube will be sucking air at anything over about 15 degrees heeling? Does that beastie have an oil pressure cut off for the engine? If so that may be what is preventing the engine from starting..although how it would work is beyond me..I have a Volvo MD7B, and it does not have this feature.

But I wonder if there isn't a pressure switch cutout, such that if the oil pump stops pumping oil, the engines fuel gallery is shut off (solenoid valve maybe?). Normally, one would not be motoring while sailing fast enough to heel much..so what angle of heel are we talking about here?

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Heading North to DLM this weekend..Yippee Skippee! heh

Let's get back to the reason we love this board...Problem solving!!!!

Here's one for you. I have consulted many including this board, about this problem.

I need a solution.

Problem stated: On my CD 30 MK II with a Westerbeke 21 a

After sailing hard on a port tack for any length of time, the engine will not start. I always have to level out the boat and wait before she will start. It will crank & crank & crank, but will not start. She will always eventually start, but not without leveling out, or going over to a starboard tack.

Facts:
While on a port tack, fuel tank rides on the high side (tank on port side)
Under any other conditions the engine always starts.
This happens whether tank is full or partially filled.
Assume good fuel, clean filters.

Is this a function of engine not getting fuel? Is this a function of picking up air in the system?

I need a solution...or a series of tests that will produce a solution.

Thanks,

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II

demers@sgi.com

[Richard Feffer]

Much as I hate to admit it, you got a chuckle out of us today!

However, be advised we will (all three and maybe more of us!!!) be watching you from all points of sail struggling to catch up!!!

Richard Feffer
s/v Adamarie
CD30MKII



RichFef@Prodigy.net

[Michael Heintz]

Captain Stump,

Considering what's been going on with the Board....and some complaints about our banter....I'M TRYING TO BE SERIOUS!!!!!!

Chicken Legs for Race night dinner....alright I couldn't help myself

Captain Heintz



Mzenith@aol.com

[Michael Heintz]

Captain Larry,

Would that be sailing East or West......

Captain M



Mzenith @aol.com

[Michael Heintz]

Larry,

As to the heel....pretty severe heeling,(especially racing against Dave) although I think a slight heal over time will produce the same effect.

As to cut offs etc.....I am in contact with four other MK II's (three which make up the dreaded MK TRIO) (sorry Dave) and...they do not experience this problem, with same engine.....

Cappy



Mzenith@aol.com

[Larry DeMers]

Mike,

Well, I misinterpretted what you said earlier. I read that you were heeling and trying to run that engine at the same time..now I can understand that, given the pressures of beating ol' chicken legs now..but watch out, he's seeking additonal ballast for his vessel in the form of this captain.
So you heel a bunch, then when you go to restart the engine..nada. Boy..that still sounds a bubble of air in the high pressure side of the injector output circuit. More than probably you have a self-purging inj. pump, so eventually it kicks all the air out of the pump and will start. So where is it coming from then? Well, ok, picture the boat heeling vs. flat while gazing forlornly at the engine. Imagine an air bubble in the hoses, and what it will do when the boat heels..where will it go? I am not familiar with your engine enough to do this myself.

What I would do to determine if it IS air trapped in the high pressure side is to go out sailing, down a cold one or three, find a place where you can lay ahull for awhile..then make certain that it is showing the signs of no restart. Then perform a high pressure side air bleed on hte injectors, while cranking the engine over. If there IS air there (you will see those irritating little bubbles mixed with fuel), then you have a good chunk of the puzzle solved. You still have to see where it is getting into the system while heeled..and why only when heeled?
If no air showing there, try your secondary fuel filter bleed and see what shows up there.

Maybe this is something involving multiple problems cascading..the very hardest problems to find -in electronics anyway. A possible unlikely, but possible, scenario would be:

You start the engine, and then get out of the marina, shut the engine down and go sailing. Hours later you try for a restart and no joy.

If the filters were partially plugged, so they delivered a reduced flow, you may have had just enough to do the warm up and motoring out that you did. As the engine draws on the last of the available fuel in the filter system, it creats a vacuum due to the plugging of the filter, and this pulls in air from semi-loose fittings downstream from the filter...fittings that are tight enough for normal vacuum, but not the higher vacuum caused by the partial blockage of the fuel line/filter. So then we have air being drawn into the pump, and after it is shut off, this air will migrate right to the top of the inj. pump. Might the same no-start condition exist after doing everything the same, but the heeling? (I cannot work the heeling aspect into this little scenario. It doesn't seem to fit at all).
Obviously, I am just guessing ..but I would be looking very closely at the high pressure circuit, and whether you do in fact have air present after heeling vs. before heeling. That will tell us something about why the hard restart.

Let us know what you find please..thsi is a *good* problem!

Best of Luck,

Larry

Larry,

As to the heel....pretty severe heeling,(especially racing against Dave) although I think a slight heal over time will produce the same effect.

As to cut offs etc.....I am in contact with four other MK II's (three which make up the dreaded MK TRIO) (sorry Dave) and...they do not experience this problem, with same engine.....

Cappy

demers@sgi.com

[Boyd]

I have had some more thoughts after reading this thread and sending you a reply to your e-mail.

On Tern the fuel lines run down hill from the tank then up to the Racor which is above the inlet to the fuel pump. There is a big loop down to the fuel pump from the Racor. Then there is another large loop down from the fuel pump to the last fuel filter before the injection pump. If yours is different then we can start from there. The situation Ron Brassord describes may indeed be what is happening to you. As I said before the Westerbeke engine has a self bleeding feature to the fuel system befor the injection pump. It may be getting an air bubble before the injection pump and then take a while to pump out the air before starting. The pump starts purging air out of the system when the key is turned to the run position. On mine the alarms both go off at the same time before the engine actually starts. A possible test.... sail on the tack. Turn on the engine key switch and wait for a long time before hitting the preheat button. This should give the system time to purge. Then try and crank. If the longer purge works then we know where to start.

If the problem is an air lock at the top of the racor then simply opening the bleed valve and pumping the primer until fuel runs out would be a good way to check that.

I still think checking the preheaters and their wiring is another test proceedure. May be a lose wire.

There may be a small bubble in the fuel rack after the injection pump. Bleed the rack by running the engine and slowly opening the fittings by each injector one at a time. Have a rag under the fitting to catch the diesel.

No doubt about it this is a wierd one. Let me know what you find...

Good Luck... Boyd

I just have to come up there and see this "Chicken leg guy" way to funny..... and yes a CD30II will take a 30 easy....

Let's get back to the reason we love this board...Problem solving!!!!

Here's one for you. I have consulted many including this board, about this problem.

I need a solution.

Problem stated: On my CD 30 MK II with a Westerbeke 21 a

After sailing hard on a port tack for any length of time, the engine will not start. I always have to level out the boat and wait before she will start. It will crank & crank & crank, but will not start. She will always eventually start, but not without leveling out, or going over to a starboard tack.

Facts:
While on a port tack, fuel tank rides on the high side (tank on port side)
Under any other conditions the engine always starts.
This happens whether tank is full or partially filled.
Assume good fuel, clean filters.

Is this a function of engine not getting fuel? Is this a function of picking up air in the system?

I need a solution...or a series of tests that will produce a solution.

Thanks,

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II

Tern30@aol.com