I am planning to install teak handrails on the cabin overhead. There is a space between the headliner and the structural cabin top. Looks like I would need to install spacers between the headliner and the structural top to get a secure attachment. Any suggestions? I would think the handrail should be thru-bolted thru the cabin top and the bolts covered with another piece of teak on the top side. Yes?
Bill Starck, Ryal, CD-30
Interior Handrails - CD30
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Larry DeMers
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Hi Bill,
Well, in theory that is correct. You want a secure attachment becaue a handrail has the potential to recieve a bit of torque from users. The rub comes in trying to install a spacer without mucking up the headliner in the process.
Since it cannot be removed in total, you have to work at the mounting sites to reinforce the area. Here is an idea:
Determine where the mounting holes are to be located, drill pilot holes thru the headliner, and upper coach roof. tape over the headliner holes well to prevent epoxy running out. Use the wet laminate removal technique to remove the structural foam between the headliner and the coach roof (this is the bent wire chucked in a drill trick..holler if that is not familiar to you).
Once the holes have been cleared out perhaps 3in. all around the mounting area (use all of the holes to swing the wire in the drill from)and shop vacuumed out well, then inject thickened epoxy into the void, making several separate pours with a 20 minute hiatus between pours to allow for heat escape and partial curing..the heat produced by curing a large blob of goop will smoke like a brush fire (with possible negative features associated with warped fiberglass)if the mass is too much and too hot a catalyst. Be careful here.
Once filled to the top of the voids space, allow to cure well, then drill out the holes to the proper dimensions for the hardware you will be using. Bam..you are done! ..and thanks to your perseverence, it is done properly, avoiding future problems.
Now this is how I would do it, but I have not done this particular addition to my CD30 yet. The only concern I have is that the headliner is sitting at slightly less than 6ft. These handrails will have to be placed so that a person does not encounter a handrail while wobbling around at night, looking for a treat from the reefer. That could be a rude awakening!!
Good Luck, and let us know how it goes..I am starting up a web site for Cape Doryites boat projects, which will be accessible to all here. If you would like, could you take some photos of the process, and do a little writeup of the work and what you did? Eventually, just send it to me and I will edit it and give you an approval copy first before publishing it. How does this sound to you?
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
ldemers@wwt.net (web site upload addr.)
demers@sgi.com
Well, in theory that is correct. You want a secure attachment becaue a handrail has the potential to recieve a bit of torque from users. The rub comes in trying to install a spacer without mucking up the headliner in the process.
Since it cannot be removed in total, you have to work at the mounting sites to reinforce the area. Here is an idea:
Determine where the mounting holes are to be located, drill pilot holes thru the headliner, and upper coach roof. tape over the headliner holes well to prevent epoxy running out. Use the wet laminate removal technique to remove the structural foam between the headliner and the coach roof (this is the bent wire chucked in a drill trick..holler if that is not familiar to you).
Once the holes have been cleared out perhaps 3in. all around the mounting area (use all of the holes to swing the wire in the drill from)and shop vacuumed out well, then inject thickened epoxy into the void, making several separate pours with a 20 minute hiatus between pours to allow for heat escape and partial curing..the heat produced by curing a large blob of goop will smoke like a brush fire (with possible negative features associated with warped fiberglass)if the mass is too much and too hot a catalyst. Be careful here.
Once filled to the top of the voids space, allow to cure well, then drill out the holes to the proper dimensions for the hardware you will be using. Bam..you are done! ..and thanks to your perseverence, it is done properly, avoiding future problems.
Now this is how I would do it, but I have not done this particular addition to my CD30 yet. The only concern I have is that the headliner is sitting at slightly less than 6ft. These handrails will have to be placed so that a person does not encounter a handrail while wobbling around at night, looking for a treat from the reefer. That could be a rude awakening!!
Good Luck, and let us know how it goes..I am starting up a web site for Cape Doryites boat projects, which will be accessible to all here. If you would like, could you take some photos of the process, and do a little writeup of the work and what you did? Eventually, just send it to me and I will edit it and give you an approval copy first before publishing it. How does this sound to you?
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
ldemers@wwt.net (web site upload addr.)
Bill Starck wrote: I am planning to install teak handrails on the cabin overhead. There is a space between the headliner and the structural cabin top. Looks like I would need to install spacers between the headliner and the structural top to get a secure attachment. Any suggestions? I would think the handrail should be thru-bolted thru the cabin top and the bolts covered with another piece of teak on the top side. Yes?
Bill Starck, Ryal, CD-30
demers@sgi.com
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Anthony P. Jeske
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Bill:
I added interior handrails to a 1983 CD-28 I used to own. I mounted them back to back to the exterior grab rails. I had to install a spacer to fill the gap between the headliner and the cabintop. I used SS lagscrews to hold the inside rails to the outer ones. I didn't want extra holes in the cabin top and this method allowed the installation without drilling extra holes or otherwise changing the cabintop. The spacing on the loops of exterior grab rails was not standard, so I had to fabricate the interior rails to match the exterior, but it's a pretty easy woodworking project.
Regards,
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Carpe Diem
San Diego
ajeske@ixpres.com
I added interior handrails to a 1983 CD-28 I used to own. I mounted them back to back to the exterior grab rails. I had to install a spacer to fill the gap between the headliner and the cabintop. I used SS lagscrews to hold the inside rails to the outer ones. I didn't want extra holes in the cabin top and this method allowed the installation without drilling extra holes or otherwise changing the cabintop. The spacing on the loops of exterior grab rails was not standard, so I had to fabricate the interior rails to match the exterior, but it's a pretty easy woodworking project.
Regards,
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Carpe Diem
San Diego
ajeske@ixpres.com
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Ben Thomas
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Bill,
I installed six teak handrails on my 82 cd30. four on deck two below. This is what I did. The first two shorter ones (I believe these were 36") mounted on forward coach roof on each side of v-berth hatch placed for big hands to grip without knuckles scraping hatch edge. These rails were pre-drilled through and counter sunk for bungs in my shop, and they acted as their own template for drilling through the coach roof. the hardest part of all of this was touching the drill bit to the roof and sqeezing the trigger. I used stainless bolts, oversized stainless washers for backing plates and acorn nuts to snug the whole affair down, chaulking was sikkoflex I believe. Chaulking clean up with de-n. alcohal You might have to trim the bolts if you can't get the right length for the acorn nut not to go beyond the end. This was checked and double checked to make sure the holes were exactly where I wanted them, below they are at the top corners, unobtrusive and smooth from the acorn nuts (self Locking). A huge improvement for hand holds on the forward deck. four holes per handrail. also really not much negative space beween headliner and coach roof for the forward handrails. when snugged down there was no noticable movement or compression.
The four other handrails were more difficult. topside two are mounted on either side of the companion way hatch cover, their twin down below. there were pre-existing flat teak grab rails (1x2) that I always had a hard time holding on to. On these It was a series of measuring and remeasuring to determine where in the cabin would the through bolts enter when I drilled and would they reach far enough forward to help passage forward down below and be out of the way for head room.
The longer grabrails are sandwiched togeather with the coach roof in between. the topside rail, the coach roof, the cabin rail.
Think of grabrail as u shapes matched togeather to form an oval, or this (1) turned 90 degrees, the 1 being your deck/coach roof.
I have forgotten the exact length. but they run from traveler to just a couple of inches aft of end of orginal flat rail.
As it turns out those topside rails are in a perfect position for grab rails down below. I pulled the bungs on the existing rails on deck, removed screws, I refinished rails with bristol finish. now the screw holes lined up perfectly with the section of teak grab rails where they attach to surface, these were measured and double checked, I kept Both pairs matched togeather for the port and starboard, when I drilled and countersunk . So I used those same original screw holes on deck to space & drill the new grab rail through holes and through the coach roof, (keeping the new port and starboard rails separated) , here you must be careful of the angles, you want them as perpendicular as possible to roof or else that slight angle throws the through bolt off and it wll miss its mark on the matching hole for the twin grab rail down below, Believe me get a friend or family member to help out at this point as you attach the new rails it will save you much grief. I did it by myself back and forth up and down. hindsight.
Now you have two sets (pairs) of grab rails that will match up on both sides of cabin that are compressing the orginal flat grab rails and the roof togeather and bolted into one another. There is some negative space between headliner and roof in the main cabin. The compression on port side was very little less than a 1/16", on the aft portion of starboard grab there was more, close to 3/16". If you look hard enough there is an outline of vhf wire or mast wire bundle for 5 inchs or so. just forward and outboard of cabin light on headliner each of these is nonfunctional anyway. I was at first upset about that small wrinkle, now I never notice it, no one else ever sees it even if I point it out. But then the light has to be just right.
The new teak grabs look very nice sitting on the pre-existing flat rails on deck, work quite well for hand holds and as tie down points for deflated dinghy.
The interior rails do not get in the way of head room, provide great hand holds below, they do not hinder or are in the way of the ports as they open/close. Hope this wasn't to wordy and you can make heads or tails out of it. Pictures would help, let me know and I can email you with attachments. Ben
bt@benthomslandscapers.com
I installed six teak handrails on my 82 cd30. four on deck two below. This is what I did. The first two shorter ones (I believe these were 36") mounted on forward coach roof on each side of v-berth hatch placed for big hands to grip without knuckles scraping hatch edge. These rails were pre-drilled through and counter sunk for bungs in my shop, and they acted as their own template for drilling through the coach roof. the hardest part of all of this was touching the drill bit to the roof and sqeezing the trigger. I used stainless bolts, oversized stainless washers for backing plates and acorn nuts to snug the whole affair down, chaulking was sikkoflex I believe. Chaulking clean up with de-n. alcohal You might have to trim the bolts if you can't get the right length for the acorn nut not to go beyond the end. This was checked and double checked to make sure the holes were exactly where I wanted them, below they are at the top corners, unobtrusive and smooth from the acorn nuts (self Locking). A huge improvement for hand holds on the forward deck. four holes per handrail. also really not much negative space beween headliner and coach roof for the forward handrails. when snugged down there was no noticable movement or compression.
The four other handrails were more difficult. topside two are mounted on either side of the companion way hatch cover, their twin down below. there were pre-existing flat teak grab rails (1x2) that I always had a hard time holding on to. On these It was a series of measuring and remeasuring to determine where in the cabin would the through bolts enter when I drilled and would they reach far enough forward to help passage forward down below and be out of the way for head room.
The longer grabrails are sandwiched togeather with the coach roof in between. the topside rail, the coach roof, the cabin rail.
Think of grabrail as u shapes matched togeather to form an oval, or this (1) turned 90 degrees, the 1 being your deck/coach roof.
I have forgotten the exact length. but they run from traveler to just a couple of inches aft of end of orginal flat rail.
As it turns out those topside rails are in a perfect position for grab rails down below. I pulled the bungs on the existing rails on deck, removed screws, I refinished rails with bristol finish. now the screw holes lined up perfectly with the section of teak grab rails where they attach to surface, these were measured and double checked, I kept Both pairs matched togeather for the port and starboard, when I drilled and countersunk . So I used those same original screw holes on deck to space & drill the new grab rail through holes and through the coach roof, (keeping the new port and starboard rails separated) , here you must be careful of the angles, you want them as perpendicular as possible to roof or else that slight angle throws the through bolt off and it wll miss its mark on the matching hole for the twin grab rail down below, Believe me get a friend or family member to help out at this point as you attach the new rails it will save you much grief. I did it by myself back and forth up and down. hindsight.
Now you have two sets (pairs) of grab rails that will match up on both sides of cabin that are compressing the orginal flat grab rails and the roof togeather and bolted into one another. There is some negative space between headliner and roof in the main cabin. The compression on port side was very little less than a 1/16", on the aft portion of starboard grab there was more, close to 3/16". If you look hard enough there is an outline of vhf wire or mast wire bundle for 5 inchs or so. just forward and outboard of cabin light on headliner each of these is nonfunctional anyway. I was at first upset about that small wrinkle, now I never notice it, no one else ever sees it even if I point it out. But then the light has to be just right.
The new teak grabs look very nice sitting on the pre-existing flat rails on deck, work quite well for hand holds and as tie down points for deflated dinghy.
The interior rails do not get in the way of head room, provide great hand holds below, they do not hinder or are in the way of the ports as they open/close. Hope this wasn't to wordy and you can make heads or tails out of it. Pictures would help, let me know and I can email you with attachments. Ben
bt@benthomslandscapers.com
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Bill Starck
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Hi Larry,
Your idea about filling the void between the headliner and the structural top with epoxy is not one that I had thought of. Sounds like a plan, thanks.
I think a web site for Cape Dory boat projects would be great. I'll take some photos during my project and foward them to you.
Bill Starck
Ryal, CD30
Your idea about filling the void between the headliner and the structural top with epoxy is not one that I had thought of. Sounds like a plan, thanks.
I think a web site for Cape Dory boat projects would be great. I'll take some photos during my project and foward them to you.
Bill Starck
Ryal, CD30
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Bill Starck
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Ben,
Grabrails on the foredeck sounds like a good idea. How far off each side of the foward hatch did you put them?
When locating the handrails in the main cabin, you placed them below the existing flat teak grab rails on deck. I agree that the flat rails on deck are hard to hold on to and the addition of looped rails would be better, but are the interior rails in a comfortable location for use while heeled under sail? I would think they would be to far away from the center of the boat.
Bill Starck
Ryal CD30
Grabrails on the foredeck sounds like a good idea. How far off each side of the foward hatch did you put them?
When locating the handrails in the main cabin, you placed them below the existing flat teak grab rails on deck. I agree that the flat rails on deck are hard to hold on to and the addition of looped rails would be better, but are the interior rails in a comfortable location for use while heeled under sail? I would think they would be to far away from the center of the boat.
Bill Starck
Ryal CD30
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Ben Thomas
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Bill, the interior rails are in a perfect location for me at 6'3". my wife, older kids and friends all of various heights have not mentioned that they were out of reach. when heeled the rail of choice moves toward centerline of boat( not really) we lean windward which makes the rail seem closer and within reach. I took some photos this weekend I'll send them as attachment to you. BenBill Starck wrote: Ben,
Grabrails on the foredeck sounds like a good idea. How far off each side of the foward hatch did you put them?
When locating the handrails in the main cabin, you placed them below the existing flat teak grab rails on deck. I agree that the flat rails on deck are hard to hold on to and the addition of looped rails would be better, but are the interior rails in a comfortable location for use while heeled under sail? I would think they would be to far away from the center of the boat.
Bill Starck
Ryal CD30
bt@benthomaslandscapers.com
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Ben Thomas
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Bill, Have scanned photos for you but need e-mail address. Please advise. Ben
bt@benthomaslandscapers.com
bt@benthomaslandscapers.com
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Olli Wendelin
Re: Interior Handrails - CD30
Ben,
Could you send me the pictures of your handrail installation. I have been considering the same for my CD 30. I tried your e-mail, but it can back undelivered.
Olli P Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy.mil
Could you send me the pictures of your handrail installation. I have been considering the same for my CD 30. I tried your e-mail, but it can back undelivered.
Olli P Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC
wendelin@spawar.navy.mil