sailing technique question

[Craig]

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig



cnspsych@aol.com

[Warren Kaplan]

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

Craig,
Firstly, let's make sure we have our terms straight. You said Lee Helm so I assume the bow is falling off instead of pointing more into the wind which would be weather helm. Reefing is usually used if there is too much weather helm (among other reasons). If you were reefed down and still experienced lee helm, another reef would probably make things worse. One of 2 things could be done. You could raise the mainsail up again but in that wind that would not be wise. The best thing, if I read you right, would be to reduce headsail size or just lower it completely and sail under single reefed main alone. If you have a furling jib, you could partially reduce the amount of jib exposed until the boat was balanced or, as I said, just douse the jib completely. Sailing with just the main might produce weather helm but thats preferable in heavy wind. Others may have other techniques including moving yourself forward or backward in the cockpit, or perhaps setting up your standing rigging differently or checking your sheet leads, but reducing headsail area is probably best. Travelers help here too.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166



Setsail728@aol.com

[Rich]

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

You don't mention the point of sail, were you close hauled or more on a reach? The combination of high wind, point of sail, and sail position can make things confusing. The lee helm almost sound like a problem between point of sail and sail position.



rpassmore42@hotmail.com

[Craig]

I was on a closed reached to closed haul point of sail. In this situation would it have made sense to take down the jib since I couldn't reef any further?

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.

Craig

You don't mention the point of sail, were you close hauled or more on a reach? The combination of high wind, point of sail, and sail position can make things confusing. The lee helm almost sound like a problem between point of sail and sail position.

cnspsych@aol.com

[Craig]

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

Craig,
Firstly, let's make sure we have our terms straight. You said Lee Helm so I assume the bow is falling off instead of pointing more into the wind which would be weather helm. Reefing is usually used if there is too much weather helm (among other reasons). If you were reefed down and still experienced lee helm, another reef would probably make things worse. One of 2 things could be done. You could raise the mainsail up again but in that wind that would not be wise. The best thing, if I read you right, would be to reduce headsail size or just lower it completely and sail under single reefed main alone. If you have a furling jib, you could partially reduce the amount of jib exposed until the boat was balanced or, as I said, just douse the jib completely. Sailing with just the main might produce weather helm but thats preferable in heavy wind. Others may have other techniques including moving yourself forward or backward in the cockpit, or perhaps setting up your standing rigging differently or checking your sheet leads, but reducing headsail area is probably best. Travelers help here too.
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166

Thanks for the info. Dousing the jib as an option occurred to me last night as I was mulling over what options I had available to me. I'm not sure why a double reef may have made it worse. Does this move the center of effort further forward, increasing the lee helm?
Craig



cnspyshch@aol.com

[D. Stump, Hanalei]

Craig,

If lee helm increased as the wind came up in strength, that is a safety problem. A vessel should ALWAYS show some weather helm, ie. it should want to round up(head into the wind) when you let go of the tiller. One reason, if you fall overboard, the vessel will round up and STOP. This allows you to climb back aboard! Just a thought....

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei

[Mike Wainfeld]

Craig-If I still feel overpowered after reefing, I'll drop the jib. The boat will sail well under main alone. Or if you're headed downwind you can proceed with just the jib. A jib downhaul helps to douse the jib rapidly, and then it can be lashed to the foredeck cleat to keep it on deck. Other things I do when it gets exciting; always hold on to the mainsheet. And I carry 3 small carabiners to close up the companionway and latch the cockpit lockers. And put on that lifevest! The Ty can easily handle those conditions!
Mike Wainfeld
CD Typhoon "Regalo"



mwainfeld@erols.com

[Mike Wainfeld]

Craig-If I still feel overpowered after reefing, I'll drop the jib. The boat will sail well under main alone. Or if you're headed downwind you can proceed with just the jib. A jib downhaul helps to douse the jib rapidly, and then it can be lashed to the foredeck cleat to keep it on deck. Other things I do when it gets exciting; always hold on to the mainsheet. And I carry 3 small carabiners to close up the companionway and latch the cockpit lockers. And put on that lifevest! The Ty can easily handle those conditions!
Mike Wainfeld
CD Typhoon "Regalo"



mwainfeld@erols.com

[Mike Wainfeld]

Craig-If I still feel overpowered after reefing, I'll drop the jib. The boat will sail well under main alone. Or if you're headed downwind you can proceed with just the jib. A jib downhaul helps to douse the jib rapidly, and then it can be lashed to the foredeck cleat to keep it on deck. Other things I do when it gets exciting; always hold on to the mainsheet. And I carry 3 small carabiners to close up the companionway and latch the cockpit lockers. And put on that lifevest! The Ty can easily handle those conditions!
Mike Wainfeld
CD Typhoon "Regalo"



mwainfeld@erols.com

[Mike Wainfeld]

Craig-If I still feel overpowered after reefing, I'll drop the jib. The boat will sail well under main alone. Or if you're headed downwind you can proceed with just the jib. A jib downhaul helps to douse the jib rapidly, and then it can be lashed to the foredeck cleat to keep it on deck. Other things I do when it gets exciting; always hold on to the mainsheet. And I carry 3 small carabiners to close up the companionway and latch the cockpit lockers. And put on that lifevest! The Ty can easily handle those conditions!
Mike Wainfeld
CD Typhoon "Regalo"



mwainfeld@erols.com

[Tom]

Craig, Like the previous posters I can't imagine that you develop lee helm as the wind increases. Normally as the wind increases the main being larger than the jib it tends to force the stern of the boat downwind which means that the bow tries to point up into the wind more. This is called weather helm. Which means that if you're sitting on the high side of the boat, you have to pull the tiller toward you to keep the bow down. If you reef the main this reduces the size of the sail and therefore you have less pressure trying to push the stern away from you and therefore less tendency for the bow to move into the wind. If you let out the main sheet, this reduces the pressure on the main because some of the wind spills out of the sail this has the same effect as taking a reef.

Do you mean that the wind was coming from some direction in front of the mast and you were sitting on the high side of the boat and you had to push the tiller AWAY from you to steer a straight course? (This would be "lee helm" because yu have to push the helm to lee). If the wind was coming from some direction behind the mast then perhaps you were trying to broach. This wouldn't be "lee helm" although you would be pushing the helm to lee to keep yourself from broaching. Weather or Lee helm only refers to when you are sailing up wind. Almost invariably as the wind picks up boats develop weather helm rather than the other way around.

It sounds like you've got the terms just backwards. Give us some details about which direction the wind was coming from relative to the boat, where you were sitting, whether you pushed or pulled the tiller, etc. Forget the weather or lee helm because you may not be using the terms correctly. I'm sure we can help once we understand the situation. It's not likely you developed lee helm as the wind increased.

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Craig]

I was pointing toward the wind somewhere on a close reach to close haul. I was sitting on the high windward side of the boat. The boat would begin to bear away down wind and I would have to push the tiller far to the leeward side to get the boat to begin to round back up into the wind. This happened on several occasions. It appeared to me to occur when the wind picked up or a bigger wave would move in on me. I can't recall for sure, because admittedly I was hanging on to my seat trying to keep track of the main and get the boat headed back up into the wind. I really wonder if I had the mainsheet out so far that I was spilling alot of wind such that the jib was providing more power than the main, if this is possible. I really appreciate the comments so far, as I have been mulling over the situation a fair amount trying to understand it and get in my head what options I could employ to keep the boat under good control and with the appropriate weather helm.

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

cnspsych@aol.com

[Mike Thorpe]

Craig,

Like all the other responses I find it hard to believe that you were experiencing lee helm. The sail configuration you have described combined with the point of sail should produce weather helm. The only thing I can think of is that in your desire to make that mark without tacking you were pinching resulting in a loss of boat speed and being knocked to leeward by the waves on the weather bow. See if you can remember all the details and let us know; 15-20 knots is a Ty should be a fun sail.

Mike
CD-36 Journey's End

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

mthorpe@capecod.net

[Craig]

Craig,

Like all the other responses I find it hard to believe that you were experiencing lee helm. The sail configuration you have described combined with the point of sail should produce weather helm. The only thing I can think of is that in your desire to make that mark without tacking you were pinching resulting in a loss of boat speed and being knocked to leeward by the waves on the weather bow. See if you can remember all the details and let us know; 15-20 knots is a Ty should be a fun sail.

Mike
CD-36 Journey's End

Mike,
I think you may be correct. While on this tack, several times I experience the bow dip (I think) and bear off. I would then put the tiller hard to leeward and after a bit I would turn up into the wind. Then I could steady it out and would be fine. This occurred several times. So I probably didn't experience true lee helm, but simply was being pushed around by the waves. In my limited sailing experience I do tend to pinch, but have been in calmer waters and less wind so have never felt myself being pushed off away from the wind as I experienced yesterday. What was unnerving was the sense of loss of control or lack of reponsiveness of the boat in this situation, though each of the several times it did this she came back on course for me. In this instance then a loss of momentum made the boat more subject to wave action and less responsive. It is reassuring to know that it was likely my inept helmsmanship rather than my Ty that was the cause of concern.
The learning curve is mighty steep at the novice stage.
Craig

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

cnspsych@aol.com

[Tom]

I think Mike's got the answer. You may have been what is called "stalling the rudder". It is essential to keep speed on the boat because it is the water rushing past the rudder which gives you any steerage. If you lose your speed, then turning the rudder has no effect on steering the boat. The boat stops and with the rudder hard over can't get going again. She tends to wallow and get pushed one way or the other by the wind. Once she started to get going you pushed the tiller hard over and stopped her again when she started to wallow and fall off to leeward or got pushed by the waves.

You can visualize sailing as being like flying a glider. You can't pull back on the stick and try to fly straight up because the plane just stops and starts falling. Likewise with sailing. You want to bring the nose up into the wind but you can't just push the helm all the way over because it's like trying to fly your airplane straight up. Sure you want to sail up into the wind, but you have to do it gradually while keeping the boat moving through the water as fast as possible. So you have to fall off (point downwind a little) and get the boat moving through the water. Once you have your speed up you slowly put the helm over a little bit and make a little course change, then you fall back down to get up speed again, but not all the way so that you've made a little gain into the wind. As soon as you start to slow down you fall off a little again and get up speed, then you do the whole thing again going a little to weather then making speed then going to weather then making a little speed. If you suddenly put the helm over, as you apparently did, then the rudder starts slowing the boat and the boat can't respond to that much rudder and so it "stalls", i.e., like trying to fly your plane straight up. Once it loses speed you have no rudder and the waves and wind push you around.

Learning to sail close hauled (as high as you can without stalling)is one of the most difficult things to learn and in some ways is an art and a feel that is learned with time. There is a sound that a boat makes when it is making good speed through the waves. I think of it as "chuckling". It's a happy splash that boils along. When I'm teaching people to sail I try to get them to listen to the wake and when it stops chuckling I tell them the boat is unhappy because it slowed down. To keep it happy you have to keep it "chuckling".

These are just cute ways to visualize and feel what is going on. It is very common for new sailors to stall the rudder. They want to go over there so they put the helm over and stop the boat then they are going even less toward over there so they give it more helm and stop the boat even more until finally you're dead in the water and the helm doesn't respond.

At least this sounds like what may have happened. Were you zipping along knifing through the waves and leaving a nice wake? If not, you may have had the rudder stalled. It's hard to know without seeing what you were doing, but I hope this helps, and at least it gives you some possibilities to contemplate. Good luck and don't give up, these are great sailing boats.

I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig

TomCambria@mindspring.com