Typhoon and lightning safety?

[Chip]

Has anyone ever grounded the mast of a Typhoon for safety on those occasions when the lightning arrives, expectedly or otherwise?

I don't believe the deck-stepped mast of the TY or any of the chain plates are grounded out the keel and I'm wondering about retrofits.

Ideas? (Or am I just worrying excessively, as the Typhoon's mast is rarely the tallest around!!)

- Chip



chipgavin@alum.colby.edu

[John H]

I have a 9ft length of chain which I wrap around the sidestay chain plates and dangle in the water when it thunders. Electrically sound? No idea, but it makes me feel better. JH



jhalpo@javanet.com

[Dave D]

Has anyone ever grounded the mast of a Typhoon for safety on those occasions when the lightning arrives, expectedly or otherwise?

I don't believe the deck-stepped mast of the TY or any of the chain plates are grounded out the keel and I'm wondering about retrofits.

Ideas? (Or am I just worrying excessively, as the Typhoon's mast is rarely the tallest around!!)

- Chip

Chip,
I have heard of a couple solutions that might help you. The cheepest way is to get some old battery cables and a brass plate about 6"x6". When a storm comes up you just attach them to the chain plates and throw the plate over. (I don't know how well that will work if you are trying to run from a storm). The other method is simular. They make a product that straps onto the bottom of your mast by two rounded plates. Each side has a cable and plate you throw over the side. I would think that this might work a little better if the boat did get hit. It might not blow out the stays. Either way it's not something i would want to deal with. Hope this helps.

Dave D



ddsailor25@nsimail.com

[John R.]

Has anyone ever grounded the mast of a Typhoon for safety on those occasions when the lightning arrives, expectedly or otherwise?

I don't believe the deck-stepped mast of the TY or any of the chain plates are grounded out the keel and I'm wondering about retrofits.

Ideas? (Or am I just worrying excessively, as the Typhoon's mast is rarely the tallest around!!)

- Chip

Pick up a book titled "Lightning and Boats" written by Micheal Huck Jr. "A manual of Safety and Prevention". It is a small book but full of excellent information. You can purchase it at West Marine or you could contact the publisher who is listed below. Being located in SW Florida we are very concerned with lightning and our boat was struck once sitting at the dock. Interesting fact about it is that 30 feet from the boat was a ham radio antenna next to a building that was taller than the boat mast and it wasn't struck.

After all the lightning I've seen down here over 20 years I would venture to say you never have a clue what it is going to strike and certainly the tallest objects are not necessarily the ones that are struck. Our 30 has two Guest Dynaplates and is bonded. It suffered no damage other than a damaged light and antenna at the masthead and some minor damage to the VHF.

I am considering installing a static dissipator at the masthead. The dissipator will prevent a strong charge from developing at one point and allowing streamers to begin forming. Any streamers that may form from your boat would be weaker than streamers from other objects and surfaces surrounding you so any cloud leaders that form would be attracted more to the stronger streamers emanating from other objects.

Leaders from clouds have no particular direction and are attracted to the strongest streamers from the ground below. The dissipator is said to weaken any possibility of a streamer forming from the boat and thus reduces the strike potential. The dissipator because of all of its multiple points easily sheds the electrons and disipates the charge before a streamer develops.

Here's the publishers contact info:

Seaworthy Publications
17125C West Bluemound Rd., Suite 200
Brookfield, Wi. 53008

[Geezer]

Another good book is "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman. I note there are a couple of second-hand copies listed on www.bibliofind.com

[Chip]

Thanks to all for the books titles and suggestions!!

- chip



chipgavin@alum.colby.edu

[John]

Another good book is "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman. I note there are a couple of second-hand copies listed on www.bibliofind.com

I have been aboard a boat offshore during a really bad lightning storm & the boat had a static dissipator. The lightning actually stopped about 100 yards away from the boat & then started again the same distance on the other side as the storm passed through. I'm a beleiver in them. John CD31 #18



redzeplin@yahoo.com

[Larry DeMers]

Go ahead and believe in "dissipators" if it makes you feel better, but know that there is NO scientific or even credible ancillary evidence that they do as they claim -exccept from the manufacture of course... The idea that you somehow dissipate the ions that help form a stepped-leader is rediculous, when viewed from a larger scale, such as what lightning would be operating in.

There is some scientific fact involved in this product, and that is what they use to market the product. That fact is that a 'bottle-brush' dissipator will take static voltage at the top of the mast and divide it into hundreds of smaller potential points at the tip of the dissiaptor's wires. True. The conclusion they reach however is totally wrong. That is that the smaller individual static charges will be less attractive to lightning. Lightning sees the total static charge of a given area..be it broken up into hundreds or thousands of pieces scattered over a 1 ft. radius..or a single source such as a church steeple, with an area of a few Sq. Inches.. If the conditions are right, and the path that the lightning needs is there..it will strike.

Realize that what you imagined about the lightning going around the dissipator equipped mast and continuing as if that mast were repelling the lightning cannot happen. The forces that need to be countered are so enormously high, that we would need to tap into the entirety of the nations powergrid for starters.

If this "effect" were real..don't you suppose that whole towns would establish laws requiring all buildings to have one of these in place? Why we could repell tornadoes and snow storms, and bad guys, etc.. No, believe me it does not work that way. There is an enormous potential present in a lightning strike, and to move it or nullify it, you have to either prevent the static charge from forming originally, or repell it with an opposite but equal force. That lousy bottle brush has neither of those qualities I am afraid. Sorry///

Your best defense is a well grounded mast and shroud system, using 4/0 AWG solid copper wire run in as straight and direct a path as possible to a copper plate under the water. Even then you risk side flashes and EMP destruction of electronics.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Ducking snow on Lake Superior~~~

Another good book is "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman. I note there are a couple of second-hand copies listed on www.bibliofind.com

I have been aboard a boat offshore during a really bad lightning storm & the boat had a static dissipator. The lightning actually stopped about 100 yards away from the boat & then started again the same distance on the other side as the storm passed through. I'm a beleiver in them. John CD31 #18

demers@sgi.com

[Will Parker]

Larry,
I admit to having no scientific knowledge. I'm a lawyer! Some say that means no knowledge of anything. However, I have noticed that all the draw bridges in Florida (where I live and sail) have one or maore of these bottle brush devices. Someone who spends public money apparently thinks they might work. I also have discovered that there is an informed body of opinion that believes they do also. I don't know so I have one. If they work, I'm ahead, if they don't, I'm no worse off.
Anyway, I respect your experience and opinion and do not by any means challenge what you are saying. I only point out that there are responsible different opinions.
Will
"Jambalaya"

Go ahead and believe in "dissipators" if it makes you feel better, but know that there is NO scientific or even credible ancillary evidence that they do as they claim -exccept from the manufacture of course... The idea that you somehow dissipate the ions that help form a stepped-leader is rediculous, when viewed from a larger scale, such as what lightning would be operating in.

There is some scientific fact involved in this product, and that is what they use to market the product. That fact is that a 'bottle-brush' dissipator will take static voltage at the top of the mast and divide it into hundreds of smaller potential points at the tip of the dissiaptor's wires. True. The conclusion they reach however is totally wrong. That is that the smaller individual static charges will be less attractive to lightning. Lightning sees the total static charge of a given area..be it broken up into hundreds or thousands of pieces scattered over a 1 ft. radius..or a single source such as a church steeple, with an area of a few Sq. Inches.. If the conditions are right, and the path that the lightning needs is there..it will strike.

Realize that what you imagined about the lightning going around the dissipator equipped mast and continuing as if that mast were repelling the lightning cannot happen. The forces that need to be countered are so enormously high, that we would need to tap into the entirety of the nations powergrid for starters.

If this "effect" were real..don't you suppose that whole towns would establish laws requiring all buildings to have one of these in place? Why we could repell tornadoes and snow storms, and bad guys, etc.. No, believe me it does not work that way. There is an enormous potential present in a lightning strike, and to move it or nullify it, you have to either prevent the static charge from forming originally, or repell it with an opposite but equal force. That lousy bottle brush has neither of those qualities I am afraid. Sorry///

Your best defense is a well grounded mast and shroud system, using 4/0 AWG solid copper wire run in as straight and direct a path as possible to a copper plate under the water. Even then you risk side flashes and EMP destruction of electronics.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Ducking snow on Lake Superior~~~

Another good book is "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman. I note there are a couple of second-hand copies listed on www.bibliofind.com

I have been aboard a boat offshore during a really bad lightning storm & the boat had a static dissipator. The lightning actually stopped about 100 yards away from the boat & then started again the same distance on the other side as the storm passed through. I'm a beleiver in them. John CD31 #18

whildenp@flinet.com

[Larry Austin]

...and all these years i thought those bottle brush things on the bridges down in florida were some kind of 'bug zappers'

Larry Austin
CD30MKII #2



laustin@us.ibm.com

[John R.]

...and all these years i thought those bottle brush things on the bridges down in florida were some kind of 'bug zappers'

Larry Austin
CD30MKII #2

In addition to Will's message every power company transformer station I've seen down here has dissipators installed. I would think they have some of the best experts on the subject as consultants. I have confidence in a power companys understanding of electricity and all that encompasses it. Many boats down here use dissipators and they are getting to be more popular all the time.

[Larry DeMers]

Ahh, so we have a massive amount of evidence of what here? That some folks follow the leader? heh..well, if it makes you feel safer, do it. The problem with these things is that there is no way to test it in actual use..at least that I would want to be part of. Either you are hit or you are not. In either case, the cause of the lightnings action is known to that guy upstairs certainly, but not to us. I can only tell you about the theory and how full of holes it is.
My family and I almost bought it a few years ago..walking up the dock in the marina. As we neared the bulkhead of the dock, lightning struck the ground dead in front of us, blowing a 3-5 ft. diameter hole in the ground. We were thrown to our knees (not in some religious reaction, but I suspect by the charge itself -all three of us side by side went down at the same time, and were kinda dazed afterwards). Now this bolt hit, along with two side lobes or maybe that was the stepped leader remnant..I sure do not know, -not 50 ft. away from 400+ sailboat masts in the marina. Some had the bottle brushes on the mast top, some did not. So what conclusion can we make of this fact then? Nothing..nada..zippo. Lightning has it's own rules, those rules appear to be flexible in certain circumstances, and nothing man can do will divert that strike once the path is established through the stepped leader.

Now where the bottle brush might help is the forming of the stepped leader. It might move the origin of that stepped leader from the mast head to the shrouds or spreader tips..who knows?


But feeling invincible while running a bottle brush dissipator on the mast head is not warranted by the proof that has been presented so far.

Now maybe this thing will help keep the seagulls from alighting on the mast head, so it could have a real purpose on your boat.;^)

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

...and all these years i thought those bottle brush things on the bridges down in florida were some kind of 'bug zappers'

Larry Austin
CD30MKII #2

In addition to Will's message every power company transformer station I've seen down here has dissipators installed. I would think they have some of the best experts on the subject as consultants. I have confidence in a power companys understanding of electricity and all that encompasses it. Many boats down here use dissipators and they are getting to be more popular all the time.

demers@sgi.com

[Ken Coit]

For a look at what some experts say about lightnig protection, take a look at the information provided by Charles B. Moore, Professor Emeritus, Atmospheric Physics, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology to the IEEE. The IEEE is considering a standard on lightning protection and there is significant oppostion to it. There are excerpts from FAA reports in the letter from Prof. Moore that indicate that they were quite disappointed with the lightning dissapation system installed on the Tampa tower and that the FAA has reverted to "standard Franklin air terminal systems." It appears that the disappation arrays may shield the discharge system from the lightning, but not the structures below it. Thus, the discharge, when it comes, is not directed as it would be if lightning struck the protection system.

I wonder if the power companies are reading these reports.

Ken Coit
S/V Parfait
Raleigh, NC

Ahh, so we have a massive amount of evidence of what here? That some folks follow the leader? heh..well, if it makes you feel safer, do it. The problem with these things is that there is no way to test it in actual use..at least that I would want to be part of. Either you are hit or you are not. In either case, the cause of the lightnings action is known to that guy upstairs certainly, but not to us. I can only tell you about the theory and how full of holes it is.
My family and I almost bought it a few years ago..walking up the dock in the marina. As we neared the bulkhead of the dock, lightning struck the ground dead in front of us, blowing a 3-5 ft. diameter hole in the ground. We were thrown to our knees (not in some religious reaction, but I suspect by the charge itself -all three of us side by side went down at the same time, and were kinda dazed afterwards). Now this bolt hit, along with two side lobes or maybe that was the stepped leader remnant..I sure do not know, -not 50 ft. away from 400+ sailboat masts in the marina. Some had the bottle brushes on the mast top, some did not. So what conclusion can we make of this fact then? Nothing..nada..zippo. Lightning has it's own rules, those rules appear to be flexible in certain circumstances, and nothing man can do will divert that strike once the path is established through the stepped leader.

Now where the bottle brush might help is the forming of the stepped leader. It might move the origin of that stepped leader from the mast head to the shrouds or spreader tips..who knows?


But feeling invincible while running a bottle brush dissipator on the mast head is not warranted by the proof that has been presented so far.

Now maybe this thing will help keep the seagulls from alighting on the mast head, so it could have a real purpose on your boat.;^)

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

...and all these years i thought those bottle brush things on the bridges down in florida were some kind of 'bug zappers'

Larry Austin
CD30MKII #2

In addition to Will's message every power company transformer station I've seen down here has dissipators installed. I would think they have some of the best experts on the subject as consultants. I have confidence in a power companys understanding of electricity and all that encompasses it. Many boats down here use dissipators and they are getting to be more popular all the time.

parfait@nc.rr.com

[Ken Coit]

And for those who want to read up further on the contoversy within the IEEE, take a look at the letter from Abdul M. Mousa, Ph.D., P. Eng., Fellow IEEE. It would appear that there is considerable doubt about the efficacy of lightning elimination devices.

The National Lightning Safety Institute also provides a few references on boat protection including a 23 minute video and booklet. Price is $79, maybe we could share it around? See http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/boating.html

for additional info.

Ken



parfait@nc.rr.com