25D windward ability?

[MWH]

May buy a nice 25D. I am used to sailing an IOR fin keel racer/cruiser.
It can point pretty well. How well does the 25D sail to weather? In 10kts what would a ballpark VMG be?
Thanks!

[fritz3000g]

Not that great for pointing, in my experience. VMG of 3-3.5 kts (depending on waves) at 10 kts wind with careful sail trim would be reasonable. Just finished discussing something similar here: http://capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38752

[Carl Thunberg]

Welcome to the Board! If your standard of performance is an IOR fin keel racer/cruiser, you will be disappointed. The CD25D has a loyal following for many reasons, but pointing ability is not one of them.

[MWH]

Not that great for pointing, in my experience. VMG of 3-3.5 kts (depending on waves) at 10 kts wind with careful sail trim would be reasonable. Just finished discussing something similar here: http://capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38752

Well... if you can do 6 knots 50 degrees off true wind, that's 3.85 VMG.... so 3.5 isn't bad at all if you ask me. My old IOR boat with old massive headsails can't do much better. I imagine in chop a big 25D can punch through a bit better.

[MWH]

Welcome to the Board! If your standard of performance is an IOR fin keel racer/cruiser, you will be disappointed. The CD25D has a loyal following for many reasons, but pointing ability is not one of them.

Yeah, saw the boat yesterday and I like it a lot.

I don't care to race or get to a windward mark first, but I definitely don't want to be one of those folks that I see motoring upwind on a day that's perfect for sailing. I like sailing close hauled.

[fritz3000g]

Well... if you can do 6 knots 50 degrees off true wind, that's 3.85 VMG.... so 3.5 isn't bad at all if you ask me. My old IOR boat with old massive headsails can't do much better. I imagine in chop a big 25D can punch through a bit better.

3.5 would be with no waves. Without the lift that comes from a fin keel, in waves especially the 25D gives up a lot of leeway. It is definitely more seakindly than many other boats, but I wouldn't say it punches through waves upwind.

I took a 300 mile trip this summer and spent a lot of time beating. While I loved the experience, there were a lot of steep 4' waves that briefly sent my VMG to zero. Didn't learn till the end that I should have had up a jib not a furled genny, but 2 kts VMG was what I averaged into 15 kt winds for many hours.

I've heard that 28s do a bit better in waves with double the weight, but I like being able to trailer.

[MWH]

I took a 300 mile trip this summer and spent a lot of time beating. While I loved the experience, there were a lot of steep 4' waves that briefly sent my VMG to zero. Didn't learn till the end that I should have had up a jib not a furled genny, but 2 kts VMG was what I averaged into 15 kt winds for many hours.

I've heard that 28s do a bit better in waves with double the weight, but I like being able to trailer.

That's helpful thanks. How big is your genoa and how much did you try to furl it when you were beating into 15 kts? Were you able to switch a smaller jib onto your furler and did that help?

[fritz3000g]

How big is your genoa and how much did you try to furl it when you were beating into 15 kts? Were you able to switch a smaller jib onto your furler and did that help?

I'd encourage you to read that other thread I referenced earlier. It's a 150. I furled it to about half it's size, which meant it was mostly contributing heel/leeway rather than forward motion. That said, it did balance the sail plan. I didn't have any other sails on board, and realize that on a CD25d I should keep the jib up most of the time and switch to the Genny only on light wind days when I'm hoping to cover some distance. I can't comment on what I'd get with the jib up in those conditions, but I doubt I'd get 3 VMG.

[Dick Kobayashi]

Welcome to the Board; it is a treasure-trove of information - well indexed too. If you look carefully at the 25D you will see that inboard of the side shrouds there is a track for the jib. This track allows a jib to be set very close to the center line and the use of a jib well sheeted is essential for upwind performance. Most CD 25s in my neck of the woods carry 130 Jennies that we dial up and down, but they never sheet in as close or in such good form as a real jib. We have a lot of wind here, and, I suppose we are also lazy so the jib is not in use too much

To address your concerns I'd search the Board for comments over the years. Many Cape Dory experts have posted and then passed on but their knowledge remains on this quite wonderful board.

The 25D is a lovely boat and has many characteristics similar to a 27 which you may also consider.

I wish you well.

[MWH]

Welcome to the Board; it is a treasure-trove of information - well indexed too. If you look carefully at the 25D you will see that inboard of the side shrouds there is a track for the jib. This track allows a jib to be set very close to the center line and the use of a jib well sheeted is essential for upwind performance. Most CD 25s in my neck of the woods carry 130 Jennies that we dial up and down, but they never sheet in as close or in such good form as a real jib. We have a lot of wind here, and, I suppose we are also lazy so the jib is not in use too much

To address your concerns I'd search the Board for comments over the years. Many Cape Dory experts have posted and then passed on but their knowledge remains on this quite wonderful board.

The 25D is a lovely boat and has many characteristics similar to a 27 which you may also consider.

I wish you well.

Thanks Dick! Very helpful. I did notice the inboard tracks. The boat I'm looking at has "about a 120" on a furler. I wonder if I could use the inboard tracks on days that I plan to roll it out to about the size of a 100....? I do understand it won't have the optimal shape.

[Dick Kobayashi]

Well, one can sheet a 120 when dialed down to the inboard track and I recommend trying it out. But the clew will be quite high off the deck. As I understand it you are still contemplating purchase and are concerned about upwind performance. I think that if you like the 25D in terms of looks and sea-keeping ability and upwind performance is a significant but not primary concern you will be satisfied with a CD, provided you are not constantly comparing it to a fin keel boat.

One thing I recommend is to search this board for all posts by John Vigor (once our guru). He owned a 25D and a 27 and wrote about them. I recommend all his books too.

I wish you well as you move forward with your purchase.

One suggestion. Either on your signature line or on your id it is helpful to us to know your location.

[sgbernd]

While I can't speak to the CD25D, I have the CD28 which I assume is similar. My previous boat was a Cal 25, which has a very similar LWL but a fin keel and spade rudder. They are not even close in performance to windward. The Cal 25 points higher and better than the CD28. We used to enjoy finger sailing up and down the marina on the Cal, tacked out of the harbour, and routinely sailed in/out of the slip, which I would never even attempt on the CD28 (although I will sail into the slip).

While I love my CD28 for many reasons, VMG while beating into the wind is not competitive to the modern underbody design.

Steve Bernd
CD28 Valhalla

[Steve Darwin]

After 15 years of hank-on and -off headsails, I’m going to roller-furling, but I’m staying (for now at least) with a 100% jib, not a genoa. Maybe those early days of wrestling with hank-on jennies soured me on larger headsails, but there are advantages to the smaller, set-and-forget jib that performs as intended by the sailmaker; sheeted inboard (side deck) for higher pointing than with a genoa; can be handled from the cockpit by one crewmember; and the jib passes freely across the foredeck when tacking, without flailing against shrouds or the crewmember standing at the mast. Less efficient than a genoa in lighter air, but, to quote Dick Kobayashi, “We have a lot of wind here…”

One can do a lot rig-wise to improve pointing, but ultimately, it comes down to the hull design. This article in Practical Sailor may be relevant to considerations of sailboat performance, and what that means: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails- ... erformance

“The bottom line is that there’s less emphasis on performance in what’s being labeled a cruising sailboat. This is especially true when it comes to the on-the-wind performance that’s missing in many mainstream production cruising sailboats. As a good friend once said, Put up enough sail area, and you can get a floating dock to sail off-the-wind, but the real art in cruising boat design is to create good all-around sailing characteristics on all points of sail.”

“Those cruising shoal waters - and willing to do some motor sailing to augment poor windward performance - may find the accommodation volume increase afforded by these beamy, shoal-draft designs a fair trade for on-the-wind sailing performance. But when it comes to offshore passagemaking and the ability to claw off a lee shore under sail, there’s no substitute for at least moderate draft and a meaningful ballast/displacement ratio (30 percent coastal and greater than 35 percent for offshore).”

The ballast/displacement ration of the Cape Dory 25D is about 40 (near average for CD cruising yachts?). She very rarely balks at tacking, which is important, especially to novice sailors. https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cape-dory-25d

[Dick Kobayashi]

Good to hear from you, Steve. And our members will appreciate your thoughtful comments. I think it was Bessie Smith who sang " I'm built for comfort not for speed" or similar. In some ways descriptive of our beloved CDs! A furler is a pretty great step-up, I'd say. I valued it more as I became a geezer sailor.