No More AGMs on the Far Reach

[John Stone]

After a lot of thinking and discussion with someone I trust immensely I have decided to move away from AGMs now that I have installed an engine.

The solution—two six volt Trojan T 105s deep cycle wet cell batteries as the house (225 ah bank) for the same price as the 100 ah AGM. Then a simple inexpensive Marine starting battery for the engine. They will be connected through the Blue Seas add a battery switch. Easy to charge. No special alternator required. No fancy charger. Much simpler. Bigger bank (which I don’t really need now) and far less expensive and far less complicated. The best way I can think of to keep simple things simple.

The whole battery thing and endless on-line arguments just annoys me. But this seems the simplest plan with the most reliable set up I can come up with and more than meets my needs. So it is said, so it is written, so on and so forth....

[BernieA]

I'm with you regarding traditional wet cell batteries. Overall cost is lower, charging is relatively simple, and longevity is very good. If other folks want to go with AGM or lithium, I'm not going to argue their points, but cheap and easy works for me.
Bernie Armstrong
CD28 S/V Pinafore
Sequim Bay WA

[Jim Walsh]

It can be annoying as everyone has different needs and expectations. I always had flooded batteries with no complaints. I ended up getting a Flow Rite Quick-Fill battery watering system. That made routine maintenance much easier and kept the levels precise.
I went with AGM this time around when I went to a starter and two battery house bank. First year is thumbs up....we’ll see how it goes long term.

[John Stone]

It can be annoying as everyone has different needs and expectations. I always had flooded batteries with no complaints. I ended up getting a Flow Rite Quick-Fill battery watering system. That made routine maintenance much easier and kept the levels precise.
I went with AGM this time around when I went to a starter and two battery house bank. First year is thumbs up....we’ll see how it goes long term.

I liked my single AGM. Worked great. No complaint. But the engine complicated it. The annoying part to me is all the different opinions about how to get AGMs to last, even among the so called experts. This is probably true regarding batteries in general though it’s just nuts for AGMs and Lithiums. Why should there be so much conflicting info on battery maintenance. This is one of those few things that should be more science than art I think. Even the manufacturers are nebulous and when they aren’t it always seems to require test equipment, temperature sensors, big complex chargers, and of course magic dust. You need a four stage charger. No it’s a six stage charge. That’s not right has to be eight stages. Equalize twice a year. Wrong. You need to equalize every month.... Even RC Collins AKA Maine Sail makes it sound like you have have to have all kinds of expensive equipment to maintain these batteries to achieve max life. I read through this stuff till my head exploded. I finally asked myself what is it I’m trying to do? Go sailing is #1 priority. Maintain as simple a boat as possible so I can focus on #1. I have to sometimes remember the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

I agree different people want different things. But for me I have to remember to avoid getting sucked down someone else path.

I gritting my teeth right now cause there is no going back to the way it was....

[ghockaday]

It is so nice on this site. Any other site and 20 people would have jumped on the both of you and told you how stupid you were for coming to your own conclusion. Your conclusion is made by your research and meets your requirements. Which means it is the correct one for you.
I have a 300 amp hour back of six volt AGMs in series for a 48 volt bank. 3 years old, no battery balance, no charging thermostat, they lay on their side which is important when trying to find a spot for 8, 6 volt batteries that weigh 90 pounds each. They also don't have to be vented. A little safer on a boat. No issues so far. I do use a smart charger. No performance issues as of yet. If I can get 6 years out of them I'll be happy. That works out to about $600 per year. I am hoping they are worth it, it was a hard decision. The pix is before they were laid down. The hardest part for my decision was LiFePo vs AGM. I am hoping LiFePo come down before the next replacement. With a battery budget of $4k if I went LiFePo I would have to drop back to a 100 amp bank. Which by the way I sail would be enough I think, since you are able to discharge much lower. 50 percent for the AGM vs 90 percent for the LiFePo.

Battery Bank.jpg (388.61 KiB) Viewed 905 times

[John Stone]

It is so nice on this site. Any other site and 20 people would have jumped on the both of you and told you how stupid you were for coming to your own conclusion. Your conclusion is made by your research and meets your requirements. Which means it is the correct one for you.

Battery Bank.jpg

I’m not an active member of any other forum for just the reasons you mentioned. Concur, as long as your happy with your boat and systems and skill set then that’s what matters.

This should probably be a new thread but by visiting some of the other forms to see what folks are doing with their power systems my conclusion is many people are not happy with their battery systems. Generally, it seems, their batteries don’t seem to last very long and they are uncertain about the maintenance requirements. You can feel the frustration they are experiencing. And that’s what I mean about conflicting advice...even from the so called experts. Over on Affordable Adventure Cruising (AAC) John Harris replace his huge battery bank three times over just a few years. There is a huge thread there about all the conflicting info he has uncovered and all from industry experts. And he is supposed to be an expert. The average sailor is screwed if not very careful.

Both times I have spent a season sailing in the West Indies I ran across many people who were being bled out of money trying to find experts to fix problems on their boats. Water makers, refrigeration, engines, electrical issues were the main problems. They loved where they were but hated they were hemorrhaging money to maintain systems that were mostly not essential to what they enjoyed about being there.

A lot of folks have been sold on what you have to have on your boat to go cruising or to be a “safe” mariner. Most of it is simply not true. And that’s my personal aggravation with a small simple easy to charge and maintain battery system. The experts are trying to move people away from affordable, simple, and reliable to something complex, expensive, and unreliable. Talk to and read about people all the time that just give up on sailing because it becomes to hard to maintain. But I don’t Think it has to be that way. I suspect that’s why the Ty is so popular. It provides a lot of adventure for a small amount of money. But I don’t think a bigger boat like the FR has to be vastly more complicated. We have just been convinced they need to that way.

No one path for all people. And if some folks like expensive systems then right on for them. But I think there are many people that get sold a bill of goods that doesn’t meet their needs.

Anyway, I’m just venting a little. I am trying to understand my own small system and doing my best to get it right. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. I’m sure I will be smarter for it but I hope I won’t be poorer for it as well.

[Frenchy]

For what it's worth, my boat has had group 27 lead acid batteries since 2012 and we've had zero problems.
They are charged at the mooring with a small 45 watt solar panel and are almost always at 98 to 100 SOC.
That's per a Balmar Smart Guage monitor, which is a very simple thing to install - no shunts, etc. - Jean

[John Stone]

Jean, that’s very encouraging. Can you provide more about your system? Total ah and how many batteries. Anything else you can think of. Just trying to gain insight on what works.

[Frenchy]

Well, there's not much to tell. Mostly, I follow Maine Sail's advice on trying to keep the batteries fully charged,
as that's the key to longevity. The solar panel is hung off the rear, on the stern pulpit and charges the house
batteries, 2 deep cycle 12 volt Group 27's through a Genosun MPPT controller. There is a Xantrax echo charger
to keep the engine battery topped up, also a Group 27. The battery monitor is the Balmar Smartguage, which
has been great-its draw is tiny; installation a breeze. You can monitor both banks with it, however it'll only
give you a state-of-charge for the main bank. For the second bank, it gives you a voltage, which for me is
usually very close to the main bank. This gage is said to be more accurate than others that use a shunt and
was originally developed for the military, I understand.

I don't have refrigeration. I was thinking about it, but decided against it. The loads consist of a Raymarine
wheel pilot, radios, instruments and lights.
Your philosophy of keeping things simple resonates with me. Sailing should be fun but it's all too easy
to make things frustrating. - Jean

[John Stone]

Thanks Jean. I got my original solar set by reading the info on Maine Sail too, called Compass Marine in those days. Victron BMV 700 monitor and a Genesun MPPT controller. My 30 watt semi flex panel is on a 10’ cord so I can move it around. Like you I was happy with it.

I don’t have a stand alone charger. So I need to read and improve my knowledge about what I can incorporate that I already have as I switch over to the Trojans.
Thanks for the info.

John

[ghockaday]

For what it's worth, my boat has had group 27 lead acid batteries since 2012 and we've had zero problems.
They are charged at the mooring with a small 45 watt solar panel and are almost always at 98 to 100 SOC.
That's per a Balmar Smart Guage monitor, which is a very simple thing to install - no shunts, etc. - Jean

Jean, this is very encouraging for me as well and I was very happy to here. 10 years out of flooded lead acid. Mine are not flooded as I mentioned in my previous comments. But my battery bank has a very different job than yours and John's as it has to run a 10kw motor. But I do charge them completely every sail and have only once taken them down as low as 90 percent once in three years. I have thought about switching to LiFePo when they are done and just read a huge article about them on Marine How To site and it made my head spin. I am really hoping something better comes along in the next 5 years, other wise I'll probable re-power with the AGMs. 10 years would not be bad. Dennis

[John Stone]

For what it's worth, my boat has had group 27 lead acid batteries since 2012 and we've had zero problems.
They are charged at the mooring with a small 45 watt solar panel and are almost always at 98 to 100 SOC.
That's per a Balmar Smart Guage monitor, which is a very simple thing to install - no shunts, etc. - Jean

Jean, this is very encouraging for me as well and I was very happy to here. 10 years out of flooded lead acid. Mine are not flooded as I mentioned in my previous comments. But my battery bank has a very different job than yours and John's as it has to run a 10kw motor. But I do charge them completely every sail and have only once taken them down as low as 90 percent once in three years. I have thought about switching to LiFePo when they are done and just read a huge article about them on Marine How To site and it made my head spin. I am really hoping something better comes along in the next 5 years, other wise I'll probable re-power with the AGMs. 10 years would not be bad. Dennis

Dennis, sounds really neat. Electric power has some real cool things going for it. I wish I could have figured out how to make it work for us but it just wasn’t viable given the way the FR is equipped and the way we use her.

[fmueller]

John,

I have two group 27 AGMs (Trojan) and initially they were in a two bank config. There has never been a problem with even just a single battery starting my diminutive Beta 14. They are deep cycle batteries but still have 660 cold cranking amps at 32 degrees. Two years ago I decided to strap the batteries in parallel and just have a single house bank setup twice the size - and then I bought a lithium jump starter pack on the off chance that I might run down the combined bank. This has simplified everything - I never touch the battery bank switch - and frankly with availability of these small and capable jump starter packs I don’t see the rational of a dedicated starter battery any longer. The idea that our small marine diesels need a “starter” type battery is just not true.

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GB50-UltraS ... 1155&psc=1

When my AGMs give up the ghost I’ll move to lithium.

To each his own. I’m just posting here to present another POV

Cheers

[John Stone]

John,

I have two group 27 AGMs (Trojan) and initially they were in a two bank config. There has never been a problem with even just a single battery starting my diminutive Beta 14. They are deep cycle batteries but still have 660 cold cranking amps at 32 degrees. Two years ago I decided to strap the batteries in parallel and just have a single house bank setup twice the size - and then I bought a lithium jump starter pack on the off chance that I might run down the combined bank. This has simplified everything - I never touch the battery bank switch - and frankly with availability of these small and capable jump starter packs I don’t see the rational of a dedicated starter battery any longer. The idea that our small marine diesels need a “starter” type battery is just not true.

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GB50-UltraS ... 1155&psc=1

When my AGMs give up the ghost I’ll move to lithium.

To each his own. I’m just posting here to present another POV

Cheers

Fred, concur. I think a single bank is a smart way to go for someone like me. I have thought the same. It was my first instinct at the beginning of the engine installation project and an idea I reconsidered again not too long ago—a single battery bank, either two Group 27 AGMs or two T105s. Just a bigger version of what I had and enjoyed. Battery switch on or off. Solar charges the one bank. Engine charges the same bank. Simple. If batteries get drawn down too far wait till solar at charges them. But, I listened to some advice from someone that has long been a great advisor to me. And this person has been diligent about helping me remain true to my vision, and his advice has proven to be spot on. Also, I already have the add a battery switch and it’s installed.

So I muse on this quite a bit. If I went with a single bank I would not carry a jump battery. What’s the point? It’s just something else to carry. And I agree with you that engines and batteries these days, if well maintained and kept simple, along with a decent monitor, seem very reliable. You have a good idea where your battery is in its life cycle. And if the engine does not start I am no worse a situation than I am now.

Lots to think about. Thanks for sharing.

[fmueller]

John. The thing about the lithium jump pack is that it has other utility. It can charge any phone/tablet type device and it is an amazing work light and emergency sos strobe. Blinding actually. They hold full charge for months and months. And for what they are - tiny. I did not get it for these reasons but welcome the perks just the same.

Trojan has a new Trillium series LiFePo4 battery. They would physically drop into place where I now have my bank (right under the cabin sole on top of the keel ballast). Interestingly this series is setup in its battery management system to charge on AGM parameters. So it just becomes a question of cost. They are very expensive.

Commonly boaters will tell you that “lithium” is a fire hazard. But that is only true lithium hexoflurophospate and LiCoPo4 based formulas (what’s in your phone). Lithium iron phosphate batteries are far more thermally safe. The brands sold for RV/Marine use are all lifepo4. They are not quite as energy dense by weight but still 30-40 % lighter than lead acid and they have the same depth of discharge and cycle count typical of lithium chemistry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium ... te_battery

I’m figuring in another 3 years when my AGMs will be 8 years old the price of lithium might be in a range I can handle. These are things I amuse myself thinking about. Cheers and deeply appreciate these threads and the civil and informative discussion