Retractable hidden outboard?

[wikakaru]

[I'm moving this discussion from another hijacked thread to its own thread...]
I have often thought that the "inboard outboard" location on some of the Cape Dorys like the Typhoon Senior and the CD25 would be perfect if only there were some way to easily retract the outboard and cover the hole in the bottom. I have seen a number of solutions, but none that meet all of the following requirements:

1. None of the propulsion system is visible when the outboard is stored, and preferably not when it is deployed. I want the classic lines of the boat to be unadulterated. This rules out the typical transom brackets and side-mount brackets (like the one John Stone designed for Far Reach).
2. The installation does not have any underwater protuberances to interfere with water flow when sailing. This rules out the stock Ty Sr and CD25 installations where the lazarette outboard is left in place, and of course rules out inboard engines that have a prop and aperture always dragging around under the surface of the water.
3. Easy enough to store and deploy that you wouldn't mind doing it before and after every sail. This effectively rules out the nice removable brackets that the Typhoon has.

I have seen a few interesting solutions, most of them electric, but electric brings up a sort of violation to requirement 1, because to charge the system, you will have to install a bunch of solar panels, and they will certainly be visible and ruin the classic look of the boat.

Here are some close-but-no-cigar attempts that I have seen:

The Pearson Triton Atom (https://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/im ... -well.html)
The power head is nicely hidden in the lazarette location, and the engine tilts out of the water when sailing, but there is a big gap in the transom when the outboard is down and the lower unit sticking out of the transom when the outboard is up.

Schock Harbor 20 https://youtu.be/Yyw54qjwTtQ?t=362
Nice stowage location out of the water in the lazarette, and easily swings out on a bracket, but is visible when motoring. Also, probably couldn't be adapted to a gasoline engine because you would flood the carburetor when you swung it. Visible when deployed.

RS21 https://sail1design.com/new-kid-on-the- ... -the-rs21/
Nice little plate on the outboard skeg that fully covers the hole in the hull. Uses a Torqeedo, but the same thing could be done with gasoline power too.

Com-Pac SunCat custom installation https://www.magzter.com/article/Boating ... Propulsion
*Almost* stows out of the water. This could probably be done with gasoline, too.

Navigaflex https://plugboats.com/e-motor-is-inboar ... rotatable/
Too bad it's electric...

Anyway, I look forward to seeing whatever the members of this board may have come across.

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[John Stone]

Jim
Agree with concepts. Great links. I’ll add one if that’s OK.

The presto 30 has a vertically mounted 9.9 four stroke on a hoist in an integrated trunk slightly off centerline behind the mast in the cockpit. In the up stowed position the hole in the hull is sealed. Very neat idea.

Link to Practical Sailor review: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailbo ... ler-sailer

[wikakaru]

I hadn't seen the Presto 30 before. That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. It ticks all the boxes--hidden both in use and when retracted, closes off the hull opening when not in use, and easy to deploy when needed.

The drawings in the Practical Sailor article look like the outboard well is off-center which is curious.

If you had this kind of installation on a boat with a fin keel and spade rudder, you could install it ahead of the rudder for good prop wash over the rudder. The outboard well could double as the base for the cockpit table/steering pedestal/binnacle.

I found a video that shows a bit more of the Presto 30 outboard well here: https://youtu.be/4pJ1j5GW78c?t=71

I'm not so fond of sharpies personally--I wouldn't trade either of my Cape Dories for the Presto 30--but kudos to Presto for the smart outboard design. Thanks for sharing!

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[wikakaru]

I'm copying John's reply from the off-topic thread over to this thread where it's on-topic...

Outstanding links Jim. You should consider listing them on a separate thread for propulsion options so they don’t get buried in what has become a thread of questionable utility.

James Baldwin and I had an email exchange about his transom modification installation last summer 2019. I think it’s brilliant. I drew it all out for the FR. It has so many advantages. It required a redesign of the propane locker and probably a switch to a fully externally mounted windvane like a monitor. I already had the right outboard engine. But in the end I just couldn’t chop the hole in the boat and I didn’t want to give up my Cape shorn windvane. I also didn’t want to see the kicked up outboard shaft. I also have entertained the idea of some difficult non standard offshore passages and I wondered about keeping big following seas from making a mess in that compartment though not water tight around the keyhole has to be completely air tight from the rest of the boat. It wasn’t right for me. I think it’s a superior design to an inboard diesel install overall though. He has continued to refine the design and I admire what he has done. It’s s great option for many people. A different boat at a different time I might have done it.

I thought about ways to remove the engine and store in a dedicated box in the cockpit and reinstall it for specific reasons. But the extra long shaft exceeded the length of the cockpit. Could it be done? I think so but it seemed to big a compromise.

I looked hard at all the systems Torqueedo offered but could not figure out how to make it work. I’m just not smart enough electronically to design a system that met all my requirements. I looked into electric drives but it required shore power or massive solar array or questionable regenerative charging which meant dragging a propeller through the water which was a no-go. I did entertain the idea another member of the forum talked about using a Honda generator to extend the range of an electric drive which I think has merit but I couldn’t figure out how to do it with a folding propeller.

The simplest way to deal with it was to use a dinghy with outboard as a yawl boat, which I have done. It’s very effective. But to make it work better I needed to mount the outboard on a stern pulpit rack and or have the dinghy in davits—but once again it altered the lines. It’s a proven technique though certainly has some limitations. It’s the same approach the Zydlers used with Mollymawk. Kevin Boothby uses the same technique on his gaff rigged Southern Cross 31.

For my boat on which I worked hard to achieve a certain clean look I just couldn’t find the sweet spot. Probably the dinghy with small outboard like a 4 hp would be the most ideal solution. But, the inboard offered the most for selling the boat which will happen some day. I think it’s also the most reliable though it’s the most complex, expensive, and takes up the most space. I think we are kinda trapped because it’s the industry standard and the time and energy have not been devoted to better options.

Anyway, I like all those design you listed. Another one I think is very cool and meets the comment you made about retracting into a hole that is covered is the Presto 30. It has a trunk that comes up into the cockpit that houses a vertically mounted Yamaha 9.9 four stroke on a hoist all contained within the trunk. There is a cover plate on the skeg and when the engine is hoisted up the skeg plate fits into the hole in the hull and the engine box is sealed. She then has a fair bottom. Beautiful. I played with that idea during the rebuild but at the time it seemed to daunting to tackle and I could not find a presto 30 to examine and see how it worked. But I think that’s how I would do it if I designed my own boat. I think it could work on a boat up to maybe 40’.

Anyway, as mentioned, the decision to install a diesel was complicated and a big compromise. It remains to be seen if the juice was worth the squeeze.

I absolutely support engineless sailing as the ultimate test of seamanship. It’s hard work, can be unpleasant at times, but is hugely rewarding and provides an interesting amalgam of self sufficiency, exhilaration, and tranquillity.

I don't blame you for not wanting to chop a big hole in your boat for an Atom-style outboard arrangement for all the reasons you mentioned.

I like the Presto 30 arrangement. I mentioned earlier that it might be a workable refit on a fin-keel/spade rudder boat. I think if you tried it as a retrofit on a Typhoon Senior or CD25 the height of the box you'd have to build over the lazarette would be ungainly.

I think yawl-boats are a workable option for a boat as large as Far Reach especially if you are doing long-distance cruising. Very simple solution, and you are going to be carrying a dinghy anyway. Mollymawk and Ruth Avery are good examples of this. My boats are little, and my cruises these days are local, so the ratio of dinghy size to mothership size doesn't make it practical for me. I do use my dinghy as a tow boat when I am on a cruise and the wind dies. (Is there a special name, like "yawl boat" for a rowboat used to pull from ahead?) Here's me earlier this month on a cruise to Warren Island when the wind died:

IMG_7632.jpg

This winter I plan to have Tim Lackey do some restoration work on our CD22, and while he's at it I will have him add a taffrail-mounted oarlock for a sculling oar so that even when I'm not towing the dinghy I will still have a means of auxiliary propulsion. So next year the oar will be our "outboard". That still leaves my Typhoon to do something about...

Smooth sailing,

--Jim

[John Stone]

That’s just outstanding!

[robwm]

Just saw this on ebay. might be worth sending in a request to see if they have more pics for ideas

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-CAPE-DORY ... 0667.m2042

Robert