The truth about Cape Dories?

[Northoceanbeach]

Ok, so in my mind, my boat is a tank, a real potential Bluewater, stand up to gales, cross the ocean and keep circumnavigating, anchor in a hurricane, run it into the dock, run it aground, sail it overpowered until it's about to capsize kind of boat.

Is it? I know all boats need proper care and maintenance, but how well and strongly built is the cape dory line? I'm particularly wondering about the 28, I have, but I am curious if they are all potential offshore boats or some are, some aren't, I'm not really familiar with them outside of the two I have sailed, the 28 and 33. I assume the 32 is similar, just sized in between.

What are these boats capable of and with how much upgrading?

It has been said that most boats, let's take your classic and popular Catalina 30, are capable of going offshore if you upgrade it. Add stronger chain plates and standing rigging, whatnot, but they really weren't made for that and at the end of the day, they still are going to have a lighter hull and just not really be a good choice.

I've got a catagory in my mind of what I consider blue water cruisers. I really only ever think about smaller ones because that's all the boat I ever wanted. I don't want a 40 foot Jeanneau......well, sometimes I do. But I don't know about them, and I don't really know what boats these days are still being made or have just come out that are like the classic blue water cruisers like Tritons, Albin Vegas, Hans Christian, cape Dory, contessa.

Set me straight. Is a cape dory born ready, or do you need to do a lot of strengthening.

[sgbernd]

This is a good question. I have two minds on the answer.

First, having owned my CD28 for 16 or 17 years now, I can honestly say I am absolutely satisfied with the strength, design margins, build quality, etc. Sailing the Santa Barbara Channel, sooner or later, inevitably puts you in conditions you don't want to be out in both in seas and wind. But since you are already out, you just have to deal with them. The boat has always held together, gear proved up to the task, etc. It will take far more than I can.

That said, the boats as shipped were not equipped for blue water cruising. They lack lee cloths, dodgers, double life lines, self steering, decent insulation on the ice box, proper shelves and dividers in the storage areas, positive locking catches on the various doors (behind the head, anchor locker), shelves in the lazerette to organise hardware, engine access, sound proofing the engine, insufficient fuel tankage, etc. I could go on, but the build was intended for coastal cruising and performs that role wonderfully.

Could you make upgrades? Sure. But you can also upgrade a Cal-25 (my previous boat) or Catalina 27 and sail it around the world as well. The smaller CDs are built to a far better standard than the Cal (or old Catalinas) and are a better candidates to cross the ocean, but I don't think of any of them as ideal, compared to a PS Crealock or something which really was designed for crossing oceans. I suspect the larger CDs (32-36)are a different story.

Steve Bernd

[Jim Walsh]

I did nothing to alter or strengthen ORION. In preparation for a planned singlehanded passage to Bermuda I decided what routine maintenance was prudent for a boat in its late 20's (this year she is 31 years young). Over a period of a few years I replaced things like standing and running rigging, life lines, electronics, sails, fuel tank, etc.. I probed all the nooks and crannies to satisfy myself that there were no obvious pending disasters just waiting for the worst possible time to make themselves known. No modifications or reconstruction was necessary. Our boats have exceptionally good bones. Were I so inclined I would not hesitate to circumnavigate in ORION. She handled 16 days at sea on the Bermuda trip with ease, including force 9 and force 10 winds for several hours on 7/1. I always had full confidence in the ability of ORION to handle whatever she encountered offshore and to deliver me safely to my destination.

[Sea Hunt Video]

One of our members owned a Cape Dory 28 and sailed it around the world. He did some modifications, upgrades, etc. This is his website:

http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/mainFrameSet.htm

Many on this board refer to the projects he lists on the website when considering upgrades, modifications, etc. whether on their CD 28 or another Cape Dory. It is an excellent website

Fred now owns a different sailboat and is sailing her around the world as well. You can follow his new adventures at:

http://www.sbastro.com/SunShine/

[M. R. Bober]

Ok, so in my mind, my boat is a tank, a real potential Bluewater, stand up to gales, cross the ocean and keep circumnavigating, anchor in a hurricane, run it into the dock, run it aground, sail it overpowered until it's about to capsize kind of boat.

Is it? I know all boats need proper care and maintenance, but how well and strongly built is the cape dory line? I'm particularly wondering about the 28, I have, but I am curious if they are all potential offshore boats or some are, some aren't, I'm not really familiar with them outside of the two I have sailed, the 28 and 33. I assume the 32 is similar, just sized in between.

What are these boats capable of and with how much upgrading?

It has been said that most boats, let's take your classic and popular Catalina 30, are capable of going offshore if you upgrade it. Add stronger chain plates and standing rigging, whatnot, but they really weren't made for that and at the end of the day, they still are going to have a lighter hull and just not really be a good choice.

I've got a catagory in my mind of what I consider blue water cruisers. I really only ever think about smaller ones because that's all the boat I ever wanted. I don't want a 40 foot Jeanneau......well, sometimes I do. But I don't know about them, and I don't really know what boats these days are still being made or have just come out that are like the classic blue water cruisers like Tritons, Albin Vegas, Hans Christian, cape Dory, contessa.

Set me straight. Is a cape dory born ready, or do you need to do a lot of strengthening.

What are you sailing now?

Mitchell Bober
Sunny Lancaster, (Home of nearly perfect conditions.) VA

[Steve Laume]

Nothing is perfect and all boats have their weaknesses. I would not hesitate to take any of the larger Cape Dorys on a circumnavigation, in their original configuration, if they were well maintained. New rigging, good sails, with rudder and other systems checked out and in good condition. Some decks might need re coring but the basic hull is never an issue. There may be some boats that are better suited but our boats are certainly capable and safe for a journey that few of us will ever take. You would be hard pressed to find other boats in the same size range that would be as safe and comfortable for the same money.

I have pushed Raven pretty hard sometimes and she has been pushed around a bit by nature but has never shown any signs of weakness, Steve.

[Paul D.]

Femme's been in 50kts of wind in 50 degree water. Did fine. With a wind vain, replaced standing rigging/lifelines, a third reef in the main and storm jib, I'd leave tomorrow.

Just get out there. We could argue this thing to death!

[Northoceanbeach]

Right now I am sailing a cape dory 28.

[joemerchant]

This is a good question. I have two minds on the answer.

First, having owned my CD28 for 16 or 17 years now, I can honestly say I am absolutely satisfied with the strength, design margins, build quality, etc. Sailing the Santa Barbara Channel, sooner or later, inevitably puts you in conditions you don't want to be out in both in seas and wind. But since you are already out, you just have to deal with them. The boat has always held together, gear proved up to the task, etc. It will take far more than I can.

That said, the boats as shipped were not equipped for blue water cruising. They lack lee cloths, dodgers, double life lines, self steering, decent insulation on the ice box, proper shelves and dividers in the storage areas, positive locking catches on the various doors (behind the head, anchor locker), shelves in the lazerette to organise hardware, engine access, sound proofing the engine, insufficient fuel tankage, etc. I could go on, but the build was intended for coastal cruising and performs that role wonderfully.

Could you make upgrades? Sure. But you can also upgrade a Cal-25 (my previous boat) or Catalina 27 and sail it around the world as well. The smaller CDs are built to a far better standard than the Cal (or old Catalinas) and are a better candidates to cross the ocean, but I don't think of any of them as ideal, compared to a PS Crealock or something which really was designed for crossing oceans. I suspect the larger CDs (32-36)are a different story.

Steve Bernd

my .02 for what it is worth.

Steve, most of that stuff is not even inherent on boats that are Blue Water Certified from the Factory and a number of them are personal preferences, not requirements to go offshore. When we buy a platform to sail offshore, the first aspect is whether the boat is able to take care of you long after you can no longer take care of the boat. Yes, there has been a Catalina 27 that has sailed around the world, but no upgrade in the world can change the fact that Frank Butler did not design or even build the foundation as a blue water boat and adding all the extras in your list will only make the 27 less capable in her design specs. Cape Dory designs are inherent to traditional offshore designs and if built today would be in the same category as Island Packet and Pacific Seacraft, in my opinion, as an offshore rated boat from the factory. So, to answer the OP's question, the 28 is very capable as designed.

From an upgrade standpoint, most of that is personal preference if the foundation is in good condition - hull, rigging, spar, sails, rudder. Then number of crew. Chuck and Rose on Lealea are good sources of long passages on a small boat and their little Albin Vega 27. cruisinglealea.com

[John Stone]

Perhaps I am stating the obvious . . . I don't think you should think about your boat being a tank and be capable of being run into a dock, run aground, and sailed to near capsize. That kind of thinking, at some point, will get you and your boat into trouble. I assume you really want to know if the boat will take care of you by allowing you a little wiggle room if you screw up. The answer, I think, is yes. However, many boats will do that.

I don't think a CD, in good condition, requires much, however the key word is "in good condition." I have strengthened my boat a lot. Only in a few areas was it required. I had some rot in a bulkhead, some loose bulkhead tabbing, core rot, corrosion in the mast, etc. These kinds of areas are potential problem in any older boat.

The real issue for an offshore boat is the hull deck joint, hull flex, keel attachment, cabin top construction, rudder scantlings, mast scantlings, chainplates, etc. A boat with substandard design and scantling juxtaposed the historically accepted scantlings required for offshore sailing is a boat that does not give the crew much, if any wiggle room.

There are a lot of boats that have sailed over the horizon and just disappeared. What happened to them? Who knows? Perhaps some were run down. But some others may have succumbed to conditions beyond their design and construction combined with a bad decision.

As another poster pointed out, most boats, require additional "equipment." Some is safety related (though we could debate what is necessary and what is not all day long) and some is convenience related. The big issue for me in my boat rebuild was storage. Most of the CDs I have been on don't have much in the way of accessible storage. One person or maybe two they are fine (depending on the boat model and crew requirements). More than that, it gets tight very quickly. It's all about personal requirements and what you need in terms of space and storage to be happy and content.

I don't think you can go wrong with a CD if what you are looking for is a strong well built boat.

Just some thoughts.
Good luck.

[Paul D.]

I second John's comments here (especially on the storage topic!) and I reckon he's been into the dark recesses of his CD more than most of us. The CD's are "one of the better built boats" out there, ultimately though, it is up to us as skippers to make sure they are ready for we could possibly put them through.

The wind after all, gets exponentially more powerful as its speed increases.

[oldragbaggers]

We have owned a lot of boats by a number of builders and I would say by and large that Cape Dory has been the best built of the lot (we have owned 4 of them; a Typhoon, CD-22, CD-28 and our current 33). However, echoing John's comments, after some of the things I have seen I don't think I would blindly think of any boat as a bullet proof tank, even one that appears to be built to a high standard and well maintained. We have come across a few things in our rebuild, none critical thank goodness, that have been great examples of what should have always been assumed, that Cape Dorys are built by human beings and human beings can all have off days or make mistakes. People have bad ideas that sometimes don't reveal themselves immediately. Some of the bad ideas in the CD-33 I would imagine are the reason why so few of the model were built before they went to the 330. Be that as it may, we still love the boat, but have no illusions about "perfection."

Like I said, nothing we have encountered so far would be safety compromising (at least nothing that is not a result of the boats age or owner abuse/neglect), but we have come across a few things that were obviously original and which caused us to look at each other and say, "what the heck.....??" However, once we have gone completely through the boat and feel comfortable that we have addressed all of her issues we would not hesitate to take her anywhere, always being as conservative and cautious as possible to not test her to any extreme that could be avoided knowing that the likelihood is the first piece of gear to fail would be one of us.

[Paul D.]

Lance and Becky, I'd be curious as to your 'what the heck were they thinking moments'. Mine include
-Carl's strictly Swedish and properly upright cockpit seat backs. I sometimes feel like I am at my Grandma's table
-Fitting the water heater in before the deck and hull were joined so as to never be able to get the thing out
-Plastic finger hole locker latches in the cabin
-Spartan port lights without outside drains - oh wait, they fixed that, like, the year after our boat was built!
-What's up with the rat's nest behind the electrical panel?
-No proper bookshelf in the main cabin
-Stowage in general is rather limited
-The strange V-berth and insert, excellent for one, less than ideal for two [though I must confess, my wife and I sailed for a week last month without our kids (first time in 11 years as they were both at camp!) and slept up forward. Both of us preferred it to the port double berth.]

I could easily outnumber this with my list of 'thank god moments' for the 33 in my sleep. But hey, if you can't hate on your own boat on this site, where can we do it?

Additionally, I think the market for "midsize" sailboats in the mid eighties was changing rapidly, and the expectations for room below and light air performance outpaced what was available in the 33 and 330 design, causing its production end. Still, 150 boats is not bad for a production run and I consider myself dang lucky to enjoy one.

[oldragbaggers]

Paul,

Your list mirrors ours on a couple of things.

• --Ditto the v-berth, not only the configuration of it but the height as well. I almost need a stool to get in it. But we have already decided that is where we will be sleeping as I definitely don't want a bed that has to be converted every morning and night and neither of us is large or tall so we fit in it well enough.
  --The draining of the ice box into the bilge and the head sink into that tiny little tin can they call a sump. (Now that we are putting in a composting head one of those thru-hulls will become the sink drain.)
  --I think the whole configuration of the head is a mess with the way the hoses are run. You lose most of your cabinet space for hoses to the head. Our 28 was a much better arrangement than that.
  --The location of the manual bilge pump. My poor husband just about killed himself trying to get it out to rebuild it and get it back in again. (and the location of the fuel fill which was located in that same spot and was part of the problem)
  --The way the bilge pump hose travels up and over the holding tank (gravity defying). And by the way.....that hose for the bilge pump is going to be one challenge to replace the way it is crammed in there between the hull and liner. OMG
  --The location of the radiator. If Lance needs to get into the lazarette to get at anything in back of the engine (no small feat in itself) he has to remove the radiator first.
  --The location of the traveler right in front of the companionway.
  --And yes, those quite upright backrests.

That list is by no means exhaustive but those are some of the more glaring items. The rest I would consider more minor in nature. The storage to me does not seem to be a problem, but we lived on a Bristol 24 for a year and a Newport 30 for 3 years so I am coming from a different place than some people.

But with all that being said, we do still love our boat and have no desire to have another.

[Jeff and Sarah]

Some of the bad ideas in the CD-33 I would imagine are the reason why so few of the model were built before they went to the 330.

This website says 120 33s were built before building only 27 330s so I'm not sure I agree with your statement. I'm not saying the 33 is perfect, but it wasn't a short build run.

-Fitting the water heater in before the deck and hull were joined so as to never be able to get the thing out

I at first thought that was the case with mine but then was able to maneuver it out of the lazerette with about 1/32" of an inch to spare. I can't guarantee mine is the original heater though- is yours a stainless steel square in the port locker?

--The location of the manual bilge pump. My poor husband just about killed himself trying to get it out to rebuild it and get it back in again. (and the location of the fuel fill which was located in that same spot and was part of the problem)
--And yes, those quite upright backrests.

My manual bilge pump is located by the helmsman's left knee (if seated behind the helm) but the fuel fill is in the starboard lazerette. Is that different than yours? I totally agree with you both regarding the cockpit coamings. Way too vertical. We always sail with 2 bean bag chairs though (one an actual marine grade bean bag and one is a $10 Walmart purchase- both do the same thing for vast different amounts of money). They make a comfortable seat wherever you place them (my favorite is on the cabin top directly in front of the mast while driving with the Raymarine wireless remote).