Smaller CDs Rudder issues.

[matane]

Hi Everyone- I hope I am not breaking any protocol. I started a new subject specific to any rudder issues so I might get a response.

I just go word back from the broker- and the seller accepted my offer. I thought he was going to counter. So we agreed on 8900-he was asking 9500. I'm very happy. I set up a survey, and he will check the obvious-decks, sole, mast step/tabernacle area, and chainplates if he can. They are going haul out for the surveyor to check the hull- I explained to him how to check for rudder problems-If I understand it correctly- lift from the bottom of the rudder- vertically in order to see if there is play. The helm would go up and down, moving the helm up and down. I did have the broker check from the dock- he lifted the tiller up to the vertical and lifted. He said there was about 1/2 an inch of movement. 1.5 centimeters. This does not appear to be worrisome, but then again, I know very little about the mechanism- and from what I understand, if it is necessary to rebuild the whole rudder-tiller system- it is a huge pain in the butt. Since I do not have the expertise- I would have it done by someone.
So, is the slight 1/2 up and down anything to be concerned about? Is it not possible to replace the part that might be worn without too much trouble? (once on the trailer). I would appreciate any answers. Otherwise, I am the new owner of the CD 22 "Adoryble" .... name soon to be changed!

[matane]

I tried to find a decent diagram of the system and only could find the basic with out details on parts. So I read, and saw a few projects and think I understand the basics.

From what I have read- going from the bottom of the rudder and moving up:
The brass attachement at the foot of the keel holds the gudgeon. The pintle comes out of the bottom of
the rudder and fits into the gudgeon- I have no idea how long the pintle is nor how deep the gudgeon.
At the rudder head is the shaft that goes through the hull (tube?) and this leads to the tiller head.
I am probably not using the terminology right. From what I understand there is some sort of bearing- like a cutlass bearing that allows the shaft to pivot smoothly. Then there is the cap.
Taking all this into consideration- the only thing that could be responsible for vertical movement would
be at the foot- where the pintle from the rudder goes into the gudgeon at keel/foot . Maybe I am not understanding the the mechanism

[tartansailor]

1/2 inch vertical play is not the issue, nor a concern.
The issue with Cape Dory rudders is they sometimes fall off.
How?
By a separation of the blade from the rudder shaft.
Why?
because the fiberglass wrap around the rudder shaft breaks,
and the 3/8" horizontal pins are like fingers in a glove:
shake vigorously and off it goes.
Just tale a close look at the fiberglass wrap around the shaft.
Why Cape Dory did not weld a rod connecting the finger tips
to block horizontal separation is a disappointment.
I now have a solid SS rudder.


Dick

[matane]

Thanks Dick- The surveyor is going to check the rudder for any water intrusion etc.

Is this something many CD owners have had to deal with?

I do not have any shop, or tools of this kind. I'm selling the house. I suppose it is possible to buy a rudder?

[Markst95]

I was worried about what Dick mentioned happening to my Ty so I ran a couple of straps around the rudder shaft.

[matane]

How often does this happen? How many people on the board have experienced this?
btw- your strap idea is quite impressive- great idea if this is a serious issue, and not one that has to do
with water logged or delamed rudders

[NateHanson]

I have a CD 22, and haven't noticed any rudder problems. I'd keep an eye on the entire rudder structure (as with any boat). If there are cracks in the leading edge, maybe lay a strip of glass tape along the front edge.

Perhaps I'm underestimating the frequency of this problem, but drilling many holes in the rudder seems as likely to cause problems as it is to prevent an as-yet undetected problem.

[Dick Villamil]

I have looked at many Typhoons while cruising area yards - just to compare to my 1976 Ty that I was restoring. Rudders were partially or wholly separated in about 20% of the boats and appeared to be the fiberglass that was wrapped around the shaft - it separated partially or wholly and one that I looked at was repaired and appeared fine thereafter. I added a layer of fresh resin to mine after sanding the bottom paint off then did the entire bottom and rudder with 3 coats of epoxy barrier compound - still OK after 5 years. Just keep an eye on it every winter at haulout and before launching.

[matane]

Hmmm it didn't occur to me that this could be more of an issue where the temps get cold for the duration of winter. Any water
in the rudder would expand/contract like frost heaves in Maine. This particular boat has been in the Houston area for either most
or all of it's life. Regardless, a waterlogged rudder is something to be addressed in any enviromment

[tjr818]

I certainly agree that it is a concern, but my surveyor told me that "moisture" in a CD rudder is a very common thing and that it should be monitored. He said it was not a reason to reject a boat. So far...I have to agree with him I will be pulling the boat at the start of this season and that is one of the many things I will be "monitoring". Any thoughts?

[bamabratsche]

I had a bit of delamination at the top of my rudder when I first got the boat, but was able to repair it without too much trouble, thanks in part to good advice received on this board. I was also concerned about the freeze/thaw cycle making things worse, but fortunately was able to get it fixed before winter really set in. I would definitely not think of it as a potential deal-breaker, but something to pay attention to. (There was, however, a neglected CD25 a couple of boats down from me, and the rudder looked a lot like Dick's--there was not much material left forward of the shaft at all.)

At first glance it didn't look too bad:


However, water had gotten in and the top couple of inches had started to deteriorate from the inside out. Grinding down to solid material got me to this:


Then I filled everything back in with multiple layers of glass wrapped around the rudder shaft:


Faired the area, covered the entire rudder with an additional layer of glass including a strip covering the edge all the way around, rolled on several layers of unthickened epoxy as a barrier coat, and applied bottom paint:


I just hauled her for the winter, and everything seems to be intact. So far so good...

[Oswego John]

Bamabratsche,

Nice job. Looking good.

O J

[matane]

That is a very nice job- but I have neither the tools, nor the desire (I've restored boats one too many times) to have to grind down
and replace/fill rotted wood. So it would be a deal breaker for me.
Tjr, Thanks for your info- that is a big help. I have no idea how familiar he is with CD rudders. I almost wish I had not done
all this research on all the variables, and just went with ... dumb luck- like my first CD Typhoon in ME. Now I'm paranoid about getting a "project boat". I've never bought a boat blind like this. I've also mostly dealt with sport fishing boats, or small sailboats w/stern rudders- on site.
tjr- your surveyor said "moisture"? Did he ever explain what he meant by that? In any case, if it is an issue, I can
bargain with the seller and ask that the problem be taken care of prior to purchase.

[tjr818]

Tjr, Thanks for your info- that is a big help. I have no idea how familiar he is with CD rudders. I almost wish I had not done
all this research on all the variables, and just went with ... dumb luck- like my first CD Typhoon in ME. Now I'm paranoid about getting a "project boat". I've never bought a boat blind like this. I've also mostly dealt with sport fishing boats, or small sailboats w/stern rudders- on site.
tjr- your surveyor said "moisture"? Did he ever explain what he meant by that? In any case, if it is an issue, I can
bargain with the seller and ask that the problem be taken care of prior to purchase.

My surveyor is a very old salt, an experienced surveyor from Sheboygan, WI. He has extensive experience with Cape Dorys. Before he set foot on Sláinte he knew "where all the bodies are buried" He told me almost exactly what to expect and he was right on all points. As for the rudder, survey says..."Rudder is free in rudder shoe with normal axial and radial clearance - sounding of rudder shell indicates no voids or shell from core delamination - moisture readings on the rudder vertical were in the dry/moist range". His advice was to buy the boat and monitor the rudder. He was more concerned about a few quarter size gelcoat chips in the cockpit sole.
I would certainly use the rudder as a bargaining point, but I wouldn't let it scare me away from a good boat.

[matane]

TJ- Thanks very much- that helps loads. I think I will copy and paste your surveyors remark, so that my guy- who seems
quite competent and has a good reputation- is aware. I have emailed him a couple of times mentioning where there could
be rudder problems, and giving him an alert. So he might be overly conservative. Was yours on the hard when surveyed or
was it hauled out? Complicating things- and I'm sure it's common- is that it will be hauled, and inspected.
If you happen to read my post- do you have a little vertical up/down if you were to lift from the tiller or at the bottom
of the rudder?
Whatever- I'm not going to lose sleep over it- whatever it is I'll find out. If its like bamabratch's delam- I would only
accept the terms if it was properly taken care of like he did.

On a totally different note-since bambratch brought it up- I have noticed that some boats have the barrier coating
and then anti fouling. Other boats just have anti-fouling. I have had either trailerable fishing boats- or the Ty for
short durations on mooring- 1 month- It just had blue bottom anti fouling. I know zero about long term hull submersion. Is this
barrier coat in anyway necessary? An added extra to protect against gell blisters? For cold climates? I'll google it, but
if anyone is interested in commenting, feel free, and I would welcome the input.