Typhoon SENIOR: weather helm HELP!

[John383]

Hi- our Typhoon SENIOR has quite a weather helm....

We have adjusted the mast rake, and replaced the main..

even with a genny, she still pulls up pretty hard...esp in a moderate or stronger breeze...

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or is this perhaps just the Senior's personality? (I also have a Weekender which is perfectly balanced)...

"Whimsy"- another Senior- are you listening (I see you in the harbor!)

Thanks so much!!

John Wiecha
Boston area (boat is in Salem-Marblehead

[winthrop fisher]

how are doing,

well i had the cd22 and the ty,

and i have found on both boats that the mast slightly forward or aft can cause a the boat to do different things and having a tight hand on the tiller.

what i do is turn the turnbuckles the same amount of turns on each one, there for the mast is straight and mark it on the threads with ladys nail polish that way you know where to stop on your forestay.

that should work... winthrop

[Cathy Monaghan]

How big is your genny and is sit roller furled?

In moderate and stronger winds, the boat heels more and there's increased pressure on the helm. If it feels like the helm is being overpowered, it's time to reduce sail. If you've got a big genny, first reduce it's size by rolling it up to about the size of a 100% jib. ANY BOAT should be able to sail in moderate conditions (12-15 kts) using its full WORKING sailplan. The working sailplan is a full mainsail and 100% jib. Once that sailplan is overpowered, and as the wind freshens, the next step is to throw a reef in the main, then further reduce the jib, then the main, etc.

Also, you should do what you can to flatten the sail. You don't want a big belly in the sail when it's blowin'.

Hope this helps,
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[kerlandsen]

I would suggest starting with a reef in the main first, instead of furling.
The issue is weather helm, which is too much sail in the rear of the boat pushing the bow into the wind, being countered with the rudder. Reefing the main should have a more immediate effect.

Of course shortening any sail will be beneficial, since it will result in the boat being more upright, and the rudder works much better in that condition.

I had a Tys for a few years. I often had a single reef and full genoa. I also liked to put on the blade jib for upwind in breeze, but that is more work than just furling it.

I recall at one point, I removed a toggle from the headstay so I could have the mast raked farther forward, big improvement there. Remember that your shrouds are swept back and these too will have an effect on balance when adjusting mast rake.

Kyle

[moctrams]

How far back do your genoa tracks go? You may not have the genoa sheeted in far enough.

[Dean Abramson]

It may be that you are sheeting in the main too much. It is easy to overdo the main. Let it out til it luffs, then pull it back in just til the luffing goes away.

In general, I would recommend experimenting with the main first. Either let it out, or reef it. If the aft part of the boat is being pushed down, in effect the forward part is heading up.

Dean

[John383]

Thanks everyone- this pretty much validates my plan to
basically reef early and reef often given that there's no magic bullet.....I thought my new main would help, but not really-

I will also rake the mast forward a tad although dunno how much that will help...

I'm kinda spoiled with my well-balanced Ty Weekender, and my previous boats...but maybe Alberg didn't quite get the balance right somehow on the Senior (could that be why so few were made?)

JW

[Andy Denmark]

Hi John,

Attached picture shows proper mainsail trim (thus saving 1,000 words). This is the same image as my avatar, reversed so it may be easily found as it's a hi-res photo. Note the "bubble" at the luff of the sail.

The axiom of letting the sail out 'til it luffs and pulling it in until it just stops works great with headsails and spinnakers. Doing this to a main almost guarantees excess weather helm.

Trimmed as in this picture the helm is almost neutral, boat pointing high and footing fast. This picture is in light air -- maybe 6 kts as indicated by the traveller location and the open "slot." In heavier air the traveller will be closer to the centerline and the jib flatter and trimmed in further.

Hope this helps ........

[img][img]http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff27 ... on_Web.jpg[/img][/img]
________
New Jersey Dispensary

[Dean Abramson]

I stand corrected re main trim by Andy. He knows more than I do.

I have found that our boat likes a little bubble at the luff of the main too. But I thought that that was somehow related to the wind coming off of the staysail. Weather helm is not as obvious (in the feel of the helm) with wheel steering, but we surely do have some weather helm, as seen in the wheel's position (I have a mark on the wheel at the point where the wheel is straight.) I will be letting my main out more now.

Thanks, Andy. And good luck, John.

Dean

[John383]

Thanks for the thoughts on Main trim...I wish it were that simple! This is not a subtle tug on the tiller, when I say "weather helm", rather this is a real struggle when the wind picks up. I have a new main, and trim makes no significant impact (unless of course one lets the main out so far that it basically is non -functional)...

so, I appreciate the suggestions but this problem is not main trim- perhaps raking the mast forward will help, perhaps not (I think it might impact this slightly) but I suspect this is a boat that will need to be sailed in brisk wind with an early reef and a big jib. Would be good to hear from other Ty Sr owners, tho....

Thanks again

JW

[moctrams]

I still think you are not "sheeted" in enough. Watch this U tube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urDFZqPNSXw

[Blue Blade]

Still learning the eccentricities of our Typhoon Senior. My experience is that the weather helm can be severe, but I'm sure it's because of too much sail or a puff. I just adjust to it. One of the things that drew me to the boat initially is the rake of the mast. I LOVE IT. I haven't reefed yet, but I'm set up for a double reef. Some previous owner set this boat up nice. She has a 135 geona, working jib (100% I guess) and a storm jib. Haven't had the storm jib up yet, and none of the sails are roller furling. Getting back to hanking on headsails is interesting after years of roller furling. Anyway, I'm just rambling now. When I know my boat better, I'll add some constructive. Joe

[drysuit2]

Thanks everyone- this pretty much validates my plan to
basically reef early and reef often given that there's no magic bullet.....I thought my new main would help, but not really-

I will also rake the mast forward a tad although dunno how much that will help...

I'm kinda spoiled with my well-balanced Ty Weekender, and my previous boats...but maybe Alberg didn't quite get the balance right somehow on the Senior (could that be why so few were made?)

JW

Start with small changes first, before you begin bending your mast, and tightening the shrouds. Remember Cape Dory's are designed with a bit of weather helm intentionally.

I'm surprised that with a new main, and at least a 135 Genny that you are having weather helm trouble.
The first incremental change in your sail trim is obviously changing your sails' angle of attack. Meaning sheeting in or out.

If you still have a strong weather Helm: then try opening the leach on your Main. Use your downhaul or Cuningham, and your out haul. If you have telltails on the leach of the main you will start to see them stream straight off the leach as apposed to curling. Maybe even ease the boom vang.

Then look at your Genny; Is the leach line over tightened? most are; and that totally closes off the leach.
Does it need downhaul, and out haul as well? Often you can open up the leach by simply moving the traveler an inch or two Aft. Here you have to pay attention to the telltails just behind the luff of the genny. They should be streaming straight back on both sides of the sail. If not; trim the genny towards the fluttering telltail until they both stream aft.

Like I said; some weather helm is built into all full short keel boats with an attached rudder, like the Cape Dory.

If this basic sail trim doesn't work: first I would reef, as you may simply be overpowered. I know on Segue I only have a nuteral helm with a 150 jib and the 1st reef in the main, or 135 and the2nd reef in the main. If that doesn't do it...Then you can start with the more drastic changes to your boat.

Hope this helps.

[Duncan]

Thanks for the thoughts on Main trim...I wish it were that simple! This is not a subtle tug on the tiller, when I say "weather helm", rather this is a real struggle when the wind picks up. I have a new main, and trim makes no significant impact (unless of course one lets the main out so far that it basically is non -functional)...

so, I appreciate the suggestions but this problem is not main trim- perhaps raking the mast forward will help, perhaps not (I think it might impact this slightly) but I suspect this is a boat that will need to be sailed in brisk wind with an early reef and a big jib. Would be good to hear from other Ty Sr owners, tho....

Thanks again

JW

Hi John
I am think you are probably on the right track. An inch or two of forward rake couldn't hurt. More importantly, though, I think you are right about reefing early. There's no point plowing along with the rail underwater and the rudder sticking out hard to leeward.

As a case in point, I was out Monday with the blade jib (high-cut yankee, about 85%) and two reefs in the new main. My smallest normal sailplan possible, in other words. According to Sailflow.com the breeze was initially around 15, then built to 20, with gusts to 25.

In the 15 knot breeze, we were hitting high 6's and low 7's, even with such a small sailplan, and things felt nicely balanced. As the breeze built to 20, and gusted to 25, though, the boat was definitely overpowered. I am sure I could have done a bit more tweaking, but the point is the boat is easily driven and reefing "early" won't hurt your speed a bit.

[hughesw]

Raking the mast forward, traveler, halyard tension, sheeting angle, etc., all help to reduce weather helm on my CD-22.

I imagine the Ty Senior and the CD-22 handle much the same.

Not that I would actually know. I'm currently marooned in New Mexico, with no navigable waters within 100 miles or more. My boat is 1300 miles away in Georgia.

Regards,

Warren H.