seacock problems, Apollo/Groco question

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

When my CD36 came into my life, she had a hodge-podge for a seawater plumbing system. A substantial portion of the original Spartan equipment had been replaced. I am re-doing practically everything about this boat, and I want her to finish up nicely. A mixture of valves of various manufacturer and types is out of the question. I know how to clean and service the old Spartan valves. These old valves do have a quality feel, and the handles feel "right". The obvious first step was to price the parts from Spartan to bring everything back to original. I learned that the cost for this option was considerably MORE than the cost of completely replacing ALL of the seawater plumbing with new equipment from any of several standard marine manufacturers. I cannot ignore the fact that I could have a completely new, modern system for less that the cost of a partly old, partly new but still old-fashioned system. So far Spartan hasn't volunteered to adjust the pricing to help make the all-Spartan option seem reasonable.

I have studied the options and the sources. I thought I had discovered the most reasonable new equipment and a good source for the parts, so I created a parts list and placed an order. I now have a pile of Conbraco/Apollo parts. Most of this equipment seems OK, if somewhat more "industrial" than the elegant old Spartan equipment. However, I am disappointed. The smaller valves work OK, but the 1 1/2" valves were, when they arrived, impossible to open or close. I suspected that these were "new old stock" and had been on a shelf long enough for the teflon seats to take a set. I was informed that the supplier had only had these valves a month or so. The supplier also said that "sometimes the manufacturer gets some of them too tight" and "we get a lot of returns for that reason". They suggested I try to free them up. I clamped them to a workbench and used a cheater pipe to gain enough leverage to get the valves to move. I did manage to move the handles. I also lubricated the balls, which only helped a little. Even now these 1 1/2" valves are extremely difficult to move by hand. Surely this isn't normal. Thoughts? The supplier owes me two more of these. I'm thinking that these backordered valves may come from a different factory run, and may be acceptable. If so maybe I'll swap the two I have. This experience has left me cold on the Apollo idea, but I may follow through with it anyway if I can get some valves that operate easily. Otherwise it's back to the drawing board. I know that the Spartan route is still available. I'm also well aware that many folks here wouldn't even consider anything other than Spartan valves. I may actually end up there, but right now I'm trying to learn about non-Spartan options.

The Groco BV-1500 looks good in the photos and in the technical description. There were two reasons why my research steered me away from these: the stainless steel ball and the higher price. (I know I do NOT want the cheaper Groco valves with the brass balls. I can't imagine why they even MAKE those....) I'm now thinking maybe I should buy a sample 1 1/2" Groco BV-1500 so I can compare it to the Apollo valve. Do any of you have experience comparing Apollo and Groco flanged, full-flow seacocks? One thing the Groco valves have in their favor is that, like the Spartan valves, they are UL Listed. I've also learned about the 93 Series Marelon valves. I'm sure they are fine, and I had almost gotten over my anti-plastic bias. But last evening, when I was using a cheater pipe to free up the Apollo valves, it occured to me that ANY plastic handle would have broken in that situation.

Folks, I'm seriously tired of thinking about marine plumbing. I thought I had worked this all out. If anyone can help out with some positive thoughts about this, I would be grateful.

[Troy Scott]

Folks,

I see that this has been viewed 64 times, but nobody has responded. Oh well, I can't say I blame anybody. It's not a fun topic.

Today I was in conversation for almost an hour with John, an engineer with Groco. He explained that their less expensive line is made offshore, and is designed to compete directly with Apollo. It has been in production for about eight years, and there have been some problems. He also said that their more expensive BV series is a far more sophisticated and smoother operating design that has been made in this country for 25 years with no problems. These better valves are "field serviceable", compared to the Apollo valves and the offshore Groco valves which are "throwaways". I have ordered one 1 1/2" Groco BV seacock in order to compare it directly to the disappointing Apollo valves. I suspect the BV seacock will be acceptable. These higher quality valves with their bronze handles should seem more "at home" in a Cape Dory. I decided against even trying the offshore Groco valve because John says they feel and operate very much like the Apollo competition.

To be fair, I should probably also order a sample of the 93 series Marelon valve, but I guess I'm not yet ready to be completely fair

Of course it is still possible that the supplier of the Apollo seacocks will manage to find enough smooth-operating seacocks to fill my order, but I'm not holding my breath.

Hmmm...., does responding to one's own post constitute public "talking to one's self"?

[Mark Yashinsky]

Since you did the research, how much more would you have to pay to go the full Spartan route as compared to the the full BV route? Wondering if the price difference is now becoming acceptable, once your fustration factor is being added in.

Dont have answers for you, but am not just lurking.

[Troy Scott]

Mark,

Well, now that you mention it, the Groco BV system would probably actually cost MORE than just restoring the boat to all-Spartan seawater plumbing. Hmmmmm......, you just had to bring that up, didn't you. My head is spinning.

[Boyd]

Hi All:

I recently purchased a Groco IBV valve to use with a IBVF-B flange. The IBV valve opens and closes by hand quite easily. Nothing like what you describe with the Apollo valves.

I am using the IBV with the threaded flange, figuring that should it fail I can just plug the thru hull and screw on another complete valve. Thereby eliminating the need to pull the thru hull and reseat the flange should the valve fail.

This system is my idea of how to replace the virtually new Spartan seacock that I am not able to keep from leaking. I am going to replace the Spartan with the Groco at my next haul out.

Yes replacing all your seacocks is a pain the the wallet but you shouldn't have to do it again for a very long time.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD 30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

[Maine Sail]

I would advise you to seriously consider the Groco flanged adapters. These get through bolted to the hull and an NPT bronze ball valve threads on.

This is the method I chose because short of the Spartan's , for their re-buildablilty, I have yet to see a ball valve that will regularly last 10+ years regardless of who made it.

With a flanged adapter you simply un-thread the old valve and, re-apply pipe dope/tape and thread on a new one!! Replacing the valves can be done in as little as 5 minutes and it does not require you to break the seal between the flanged adapter and the backing block or the thru-hull and the hull.

The flanged adapters IMHO after having worked in a number of boat yards, and having owned boats and been around boats for the better part of 35+ years, is one of the best inventions to come down the pike in terms of seacocks. It avoids mis-matching of threads and even haul-outs to replace a seacock..

I've been installing them since they hit the market and have yet to see any problems associated with the flanged adapter.

P.S. The balls in the Groco's are in fact Red Brass NOT yellow brass (info straight form an engineer at Groco). I have spoken with them about this numerous times and they still have yet to make any changes to their literature. I have a couple of these valves going on 5 years old and the balls look like they did on day one with no corrosion present.


NPT or Valve side:

NPS or Thru-hull side:

[Leo MacDonald]

Hi troy,

I entered a post around ~2001 to 2003 concerning Spartan, Conbraco/Apollo and Groco seacocks, and I cannot find it now??
But the general info was;
E.L. came to me w/ 4 Spartan, 3 Conbraco/Apollos and 1 Groco seacocks. Having similar thoughts as you are, I did a little research;
-1. Spartan gives CDSOA members a 10% discount.
-2. Groco (head flushing on E.L.) has a bronze body and ball (chrome plated) and Teflon seats (I think?)
-3. Apollo (head overboard, holding overboard and Fridge seawater) have bronze bodies, stainless steel balls and Teflon seats (I think?)
During the next few years I made a commitment to get rid of the brand X, replacing with Spartan.

The concern with the Conbraco/Apollos;
-1. SS balls and resultant chloride induced corrosion. ('chloride pitting' and 'chloride crevice' I think?) A little reading on the effects of stagnant seawater on SS will help.
-2. After they sit through the winter haulout it takes a valve 'persuader' to cycle them.
-3. To a lesser extent the plated handle with the plastic cover looks like crap.

The concern with the Groco (a much better valve than Apollo);
-1. Chrome plated ball, over service life would likely have the chrome plated chip off, cutting the seats.

BTW; I found 3 brand new, bright, shiny Spartan Seacocks in the Marine Consignment of Wickford for ~ $40 each - bought all

With all the work you are doing - go with Spartan.

[Cathy Monaghan]

Hi Troy,

In my opinion, and I know others will disagree, thru-hull/seacock combinations should be ALL bronze (no brass, no stainless) or ALL Marelon. There are always problems with dissimilar metals, espcially when they are below the waterline in salt water. If you can't afford the bronze seacocks (the Spartans are the best on the market and that is reflected in their price) take a look a Marelon. Forespar makes them.

Though it looks like plastic, Marelon is a formulation of glass-reinforced Dupont Zytel. It is optimized for marine use above and below the waterline with maximum U.V. inhibitors, and it will not support combustion. Marelon is non-corrosive, non-conductive, fire resistant, impact resistant, U.V. resistant, with a temp. range -40 to +176 degrees F you don't have to worry about them during winter layup.

One thing to remember with any seacock, no matter what it's made of, even Marelon, is that they require annual maintenance and regular use otherwise they'll freeze up. The Marelon seacocks are no exception and will still need to be cleaned and greased during spring commissioning each year and used regularly just like the others.

Hope this helps,
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[rtbates]

That's my .02. From the first part of your post I was sure you've come to that same conclusion. Then I reached the end and seems maybe not. 5 years from now maybe you'll change your mind. The Spartan seacocks on Seraph are over 25 years old and work like they did the day they were installed. There might be better ways to catch a mouse but when it comes to seacocks I believe that Spartan still makes the best. Could be why they refuse to budge on price. The best often costs more in the short term. BUT one sunk 36 footer will make Spartans cheap at any price. Or even having to replace 5-10 year old bargain Seacocks. I'd rather sail myself.

Good luck with your decision Troy.

[Bill Goldsmith]

It may be an unpleasant thought, but some day you are likely to want or need to sell the boat. If you are selling a Cape Dory to a reasonably knowledgeable sailor (as all people buying Cape Dorys undoubtedly are) then they will expect to see Spartan seacocks.

Protect your investment. I would guess that given two otherwise equal CD 36's, one with Spartan seacocks, and the other with non-Spartan, the one with non-Spartan is going to be discounted more than the difference in cost in seacocks.

[Riptide]

I've been looking far and wide for 1in Wilcox/Crittenden or Spartan seacox for several months. Lucky dog.

[Troy Scott]

Leo,

Thanks for your thoughts.

A few points:

The Apollo seacocks and inline valves have chrome plated bronze balls riding on teflon seals. These valves are a marine adaptation of a high-volume industrial design.

The better, BV Series Groco valves have 316 SS balls and bronze handles. The BV series are "field repairable". You can open them and replace the teflon seals. These more sophisticated valves are said to work more smoothly than the Apollo and/or the cheaper Groco valves. These have been made in America for 25 years. In a long conversation with John Cyr at Groco, he told me that they do not have problems with pitting or crevice corrosion with the BV Series. The SS is not in contact with the bronze.

The cheaper, IBV Groco seacocks and inline valves have chrome plated marine grade brass balls. These valves were made to compete directly with Apollo. These have been made offshore for about 8 years, and there have been some problems.

[Troy Scott]

Boyd,

You have a NEW SPARTAN SEACOCK that you can't keep from leaking? Wow. That's NOT encouraging. What remedies have you tried?