I'm thinking of replacing the regulator on the stock alternator of my CD32 with a 3 stage regulator. Unfortunately, I'm 800 miles from the boat and can't check to see if the existing regulator is internal or external to the alternator. Does anyone know the answer to this? Also, any hints about replacing the regulator will be appreciated.
Bob
three stage regulator
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Re: three stage regulator
If your setup is stock, then its internally regulated. As for wiring, its pretty simple and the instructions provided with the regulator are more then ample (I assume your considering the balmar, its the best on the market right now). However, if your setup is stock (ie low output altinator) why spend all that money on a smart regulator? Smart regulators make sense when upgrading to a high output (80amp+) altinator, on a cruising boat with gear that draws a lot of power. But if you have a 35/40 amp altinator, you will see little gain from it and are far better off spending the money on a larger altinator then on a better regulator.Bob L wrote:I'm thinking of replacing the regulator on the stock alternator of my CD32 with a 3 stage regulator. Unfortunately, I'm 800 miles from the boat and can't check to see if the existing regulator is internal or external to the alternator. Does anyone know the answer to this? Also, any hints about replacing the regulator will be appreciated.
Bob
By the way I have a balmar 150amp altinator and a xantrex 3 stage smart regulator (a rebranded balmar regulator) for sale! Seriously though, the cost to ship them to the US would be more then what I want for them. A 3 stage regulator will charge your batteries more efficently, but if your using a small altinator which is going to take hours anyways, then that efficency is reduced. It will also extend the life of your batteries if your boat lives primarily off the dock and off shore power. But if your boat lives mostly on shore power a better investment for battery life is a newer 3 stage shore power charger.
If you just want more juice goinig into your batteries quicker, a bigger altinator is the answer. If battery life is the concern, sure a 3 stage regulator will help, but only if you run it through full bulk/accept/float cycle which even with a 200amp altinator could take all day.
I guess what I am getting at, what is the problem your trying to solve here? A 3-stage regulator may be the answer, but I cant say without knowing what the question is. I suspect since your using a stock altinator that its probably not the answer for you.
I live aboard full time, away from marinas, battery charging is a huge part of my life and I have become very well versed in all the ways to do so, and have tried, failed, tried again, every method you can think of, I can seriously offer solid advice here.
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
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Steve Laume
- Posts: 4127
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- Location: Raven1984 Cape Dory 30C Hull #309Noank, CT
- Contact:
Its a slipery slope
Bob, Russel is dead on with his advise, as usual. I replaced my regulator a couple of years ago. I found a new, AR-3 I believe it was on e-bay for a great price. I also bought an 85 AMP, Balmar, alternator for a bunch of money. Then there was the battery monitor, dedicated starting battery, echo charger and a small solar panel to maintain the batteries when away from the boat. This system works very nicely for the way I use my boat. It would still be very cool to have a large solar panel. In fact staying with your existing regulator set up and installing a large solar panel might be a better course of action if you want to spend a limited amount of money. Running the engine to charge is never much fun, Steve.
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Cathy Monaghan
- Posts: 3503
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 08:17
- Location: 1986 CD32 Realization #3, Rahway, NJ, Raritan Bay -- CDSOA Member since 2000. Greenline 39 Electra
- Contact:
Motorola 12V 50 AMP alternator with "IC" internal
Hi Bob,
On our 1986 CD32, the original alternator was a "Series 15", 12V, 50 AMP "Motorola" small case dual-foot automotive alternator with an "IC" internal regulator.
We replaced the whole kit and kaboodle last year with a Balmar 70 Series dual-footed alternator and a Balmar MC612 regulator.
I'm not sure if you can swap out the old internal regulator, but you can certainly install a new external one like the one we used with our new alternator.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
On our 1986 CD32, the original alternator was a "Series 15", 12V, 50 AMP "Motorola" small case dual-foot automotive alternator with an "IC" internal regulator.
We replaced the whole kit and kaboodle last year with a Balmar 70 Series dual-footed alternator and a Balmar MC612 regulator.
I'm not sure if you can swap out the old internal regulator, but you can certainly install a new external one like the one we used with our new alternator.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
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Maine Sail
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Feb 8th, '06, 18:30
- Location: Canadian Sailcraft 36T
Cathy..
Cathy,
you can convert a Motorola type alternator to external regulation. The Motorola case size is now made by Leece-Neville after a few buy outs and such. The Leece-Neville MR or marine series alts are great and I STOPPED using Balmar external regulators after two failures!
Stock Leece -Neville adjustable voltage regulator (read very good)
Leece-Neville External regulation plate:
And a link to the entire installation: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/cata ... alternator
you can convert a Motorola type alternator to external regulation. The Motorola case size is now made by Leece-Neville after a few buy outs and such. The Leece-Neville MR or marine series alts are great and I STOPPED using Balmar external regulators after two failures!
Stock Leece -Neville adjustable voltage regulator (read very good)
Leece-Neville External regulation plate:
And a link to the entire installation: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/cata ... alternator
Thanks everyone for your information and advice. I guess I should have given more information:
I have two 6 volts in series for 210 ah and one group 27 battery (for the present) with another 90 ah. I charge from shore power with a true-charge (now xantrex) 20 am 3 stage charger. My batteries work very well after fully charged before leaving my marina. But after a few days, I never get the charge level as I do from shore. I had figured a 3 stage charge might help, but after doing some more research (which agree with Russell), I understand that to get above ~80% charge will take many hours (which is what I see after returning to shore power).
Cathy, how has your new alternator and regulator worked for you and Bruce? How easily did the Balmer fit your Westerbeke? What solar panels do you have?
I'm looking into all this because Suzanne and I are planning to be out for 2 1/2 - 3 months this summer and if things work out, get up to New England and Maine.
Bob
I have two 6 volts in series for 210 ah and one group 27 battery (for the present) with another 90 ah. I charge from shore power with a true-charge (now xantrex) 20 am 3 stage charger. My batteries work very well after fully charged before leaving my marina. But after a few days, I never get the charge level as I do from shore. I had figured a 3 stage charge might help, but after doing some more research (which agree with Russell), I understand that to get above ~80% charge will take many hours (which is what I see after returning to shore power).
Cathy, how has your new alternator and regulator worked for you and Bruce? How easily did the Balmer fit your Westerbeke? What solar panels do you have?
I'm looking into all this because Suzanne and I are planning to be out for 2 1/2 - 3 months this summer and if things work out, get up to New England and Maine.
Bob
Hi Bob,
For going out for an extended period as you suggest, the two things I would consider first would be a larger battery bank (assuming you have a fridge) and a larger altinator. Past that the next things I would suggest are alternative charging methods (solar and/or wind) then last among those would be an external regulator (but only if your altinator is upgraded).
Living on the hook, as your research suggested, getting past 80% charge basicly does not happen. You get to 80% and be happy with it. Once every few weeks you push it up, ussually when doing a long motorsail, or hooking up to shorepower. I recently put an insanely huge solar array on the boat (370w) which in the tropics actually does manage to get me well beyond 80%.
The 80% thing isnt a big deal though. But with maintence free batteries (gels and AGMs) it can actually cause serious issues. Even gels and AGMs still suffer from sulfation, but, unlike traditional wet cells, they cannot be equilized. At this point I am now convinced that a cruising boat should only use wet cells (ie trojans for instance), since they can be equalized even after months of undercharging and still come back pretty happy. AGM/Gels can be equilized in a dire situation, you will lose capacity from the equilization, but in a certain situation (such as major sulfation) the capacity regained is more then what is lost.
Energy is a complicated issue on a cruising boat. Its far simplier if you ditch refridgeration, but who wants warm cocktails?
Alternative energy is a good solution, but very expensive, and it takes a lot to really see decent results when living full time away from shore power.
The cheapest solution is upgrading your altinator. But, that has its limits as well. All too common is someone keeping their standard 3/8" belts/pullys and putting on some monster 100amp+ altinator, then ending up with belt dust everywhere and broken belts. Seriously follow recommendations on belt sizes and upgrade crankshaft and waterpump pulleys to allow for it (unfortunatley more expense, especially on older engines which may not have stock parts available, I paid a lot for a company to custum machine me 1" serpintine pulleys for my 4-108 which they now sells as a kit, I should get royalties!). If you do upgrade your altinator, then it is time to seriously consider an external regulator. Especially since large altinators bring in temperature issues. The good smart regulators not only monitor altinator temp, but also battery temp, and compensate for each. For instance, your batteries may specify 14.2 as the optimum bulk charging voltage, but if its cold out they can handle 14.8 for awhile and absorb far more amps, a smart regulator will handle that. But when they have been charging for awhile, especially with AGM/Gels and they get rather hot, the spec temp can actually be too high, the smart regulator will take care of that as well. Note though temp sensors are sold as options on smart regulators, but seriously its silly to invest in a smart regulator these days and not spring for the extra $20 for the temp sensors as they are actually one of the most useful things about them (get both the altinator sensor AND the battery sensor).
Another option is that Balmar does make altinators with built int 3 stage regulators. I think its the 6xx series, very spendy though. You can come out spending less buying a stock large altinator and external regulator which is far more advanced then the built in balmar regulators.
For going out for an extended period as you suggest, the two things I would consider first would be a larger battery bank (assuming you have a fridge) and a larger altinator. Past that the next things I would suggest are alternative charging methods (solar and/or wind) then last among those would be an external regulator (but only if your altinator is upgraded).
Living on the hook, as your research suggested, getting past 80% charge basicly does not happen. You get to 80% and be happy with it. Once every few weeks you push it up, ussually when doing a long motorsail, or hooking up to shorepower. I recently put an insanely huge solar array on the boat (370w) which in the tropics actually does manage to get me well beyond 80%.
The 80% thing isnt a big deal though. But with maintence free batteries (gels and AGMs) it can actually cause serious issues. Even gels and AGMs still suffer from sulfation, but, unlike traditional wet cells, they cannot be equilized. At this point I am now convinced that a cruising boat should only use wet cells (ie trojans for instance), since they can be equalized even after months of undercharging and still come back pretty happy. AGM/Gels can be equilized in a dire situation, you will lose capacity from the equilization, but in a certain situation (such as major sulfation) the capacity regained is more then what is lost.
Energy is a complicated issue on a cruising boat. Its far simplier if you ditch refridgeration, but who wants warm cocktails?
Alternative energy is a good solution, but very expensive, and it takes a lot to really see decent results when living full time away from shore power.
The cheapest solution is upgrading your altinator. But, that has its limits as well. All too common is someone keeping their standard 3/8" belts/pullys and putting on some monster 100amp+ altinator, then ending up with belt dust everywhere and broken belts. Seriously follow recommendations on belt sizes and upgrade crankshaft and waterpump pulleys to allow for it (unfortunatley more expense, especially on older engines which may not have stock parts available, I paid a lot for a company to custum machine me 1" serpintine pulleys for my 4-108 which they now sells as a kit, I should get royalties!). If you do upgrade your altinator, then it is time to seriously consider an external regulator. Especially since large altinators bring in temperature issues. The good smart regulators not only monitor altinator temp, but also battery temp, and compensate for each. For instance, your batteries may specify 14.2 as the optimum bulk charging voltage, but if its cold out they can handle 14.8 for awhile and absorb far more amps, a smart regulator will handle that. But when they have been charging for awhile, especially with AGM/Gels and they get rather hot, the spec temp can actually be too high, the smart regulator will take care of that as well. Note though temp sensors are sold as options on smart regulators, but seriously its silly to invest in a smart regulator these days and not spring for the extra $20 for the temp sensors as they are actually one of the most useful things about them (get both the altinator sensor AND the battery sensor).
Another option is that Balmar does make altinators with built int 3 stage regulators. I think its the 6xx series, very spendy though. You can come out spending less buying a stock large altinator and external regulator which is far more advanced then the built in balmar regulators.
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
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Cathy Monaghan
- Posts: 3503
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 08:17
- Location: 1986 CD32 Realization #3, Rahway, NJ, Raritan Bay -- CDSOA Member since 2000. Greenline 39 Electra
- Contact:
Hi Bob,
Based on your 210 Ah house bank capacity (am I correct to assume that the Group 27 battery is the starting battery?), an 80 AMP alternator, like the one we purchased, will be right for you. The regulator, Balmar MC612, is the right one also.
You might want to send the folks at Jack Rabbit Marine an e-mail and tell them exactly what you've got now and that you need to replace your current alternator/regulator with new ones. They can help you select the correct ones if you provide them with enough info. You can also scope out the equipment on their web site yourself. They carry both Balmar and Amptech alternators. The Amptech alternators would be overkill for your boat. You may also want to check the Hamilton Ferris web site to see the Ferris Powermax high output alternators and regulators. They also have wind generators that you may be interested in.
CLICK HERE to read Jack Rabbit's Alternator Selection Guide. You'll also find links to it at the bottom of their 'Alternators and Regulators' web page. They have alot of good information on their web site and many PDF files to help you. CLICK HERE to visit their web page for the Balmar 70-80 Alternator. Scroll to the bottom of that page and check out the links for the data sheets and the manuals. You'll also find this stuff on Balmar's web site. CLICK HERE to view their Alternator Selection Guide.
And ditto to all the stuff that Russell pointed out about the belts, pulleys, etc.
We have a couple of 5W solar panels and one 10W panel from ICP Solar. They are the flexible kind and two of them have given up the ghost after only a couple of years of use. So we're down to one 5W panel. I do intend to replace them but I don't know if I want to go with the flexible ones or one big rigid panel that I can mount over the dodger. Rigid panels are definitely more robust than the flexible panels. Anyway, when they were all working they did help to top off the batteries and we also used them to power small appliances (like the fan in the galley). The flexible panels are also easy to stow, but we have found that once we put them up, we leave them in place pretty much all summer.
The alternator that we purchased is a Balmar 70 (or "7") Series high output alternator -- the 70-80. It is a small case alternator but it is 80 AMPs instead of 50. It has a single pulley for a 3/8" belt so we didn't have to change anything on the engine other than the alternator arm. So you'll have to purchase a new alternator arm.
The dual-foot of the Balmar alternator is 3.15" ID so the feet are wider apart than on the original alternator. We had to purchase a new, longer bolt and some extra bolts and washers to fill the gap between the old spacer and the feet of the new alternator. You'll have to play with the placement of the bolts and washers, but you can get the pulley on the alternator to perfectly line-up with the pulleys on the engine and pump.
The regulator will require alot of rewiring but the installation instructions are pretty straightforward though my husband couldn't do it on his own (he is easily flustered and even more easily frustrated) so I helped him. Between the two of us, we installed everything ourselves.
We installed it last year so we've only had one season with it -- so far, so good.
And if you don't already have one, consider installing a battery monitor too.
Anyway, hope this stuff helps.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
Based on your 210 Ah house bank capacity (am I correct to assume that the Group 27 battery is the starting battery?), an 80 AMP alternator, like the one we purchased, will be right for you. The regulator, Balmar MC612, is the right one also.
You might want to send the folks at Jack Rabbit Marine an e-mail and tell them exactly what you've got now and that you need to replace your current alternator/regulator with new ones. They can help you select the correct ones if you provide them with enough info. You can also scope out the equipment on their web site yourself. They carry both Balmar and Amptech alternators. The Amptech alternators would be overkill for your boat. You may also want to check the Hamilton Ferris web site to see the Ferris Powermax high output alternators and regulators. They also have wind generators that you may be interested in.
CLICK HERE to read Jack Rabbit's Alternator Selection Guide. You'll also find links to it at the bottom of their 'Alternators and Regulators' web page. They have alot of good information on their web site and many PDF files to help you. CLICK HERE to visit their web page for the Balmar 70-80 Alternator. Scroll to the bottom of that page and check out the links for the data sheets and the manuals. You'll also find this stuff on Balmar's web site. CLICK HERE to view their Alternator Selection Guide.
And ditto to all the stuff that Russell pointed out about the belts, pulleys, etc.
We have a couple of 5W solar panels and one 10W panel from ICP Solar. They are the flexible kind and two of them have given up the ghost after only a couple of years of use. So we're down to one 5W panel. I do intend to replace them but I don't know if I want to go with the flexible ones or one big rigid panel that I can mount over the dodger. Rigid panels are definitely more robust than the flexible panels. Anyway, when they were all working they did help to top off the batteries and we also used them to power small appliances (like the fan in the galley). The flexible panels are also easy to stow, but we have found that once we put them up, we leave them in place pretty much all summer.
The alternator that we purchased is a Balmar 70 (or "7") Series high output alternator -- the 70-80. It is a small case alternator but it is 80 AMPs instead of 50. It has a single pulley for a 3/8" belt so we didn't have to change anything on the engine other than the alternator arm. So you'll have to purchase a new alternator arm.
The dual-foot of the Balmar alternator is 3.15" ID so the feet are wider apart than on the original alternator. We had to purchase a new, longer bolt and some extra bolts and washers to fill the gap between the old spacer and the feet of the new alternator. You'll have to play with the placement of the bolts and washers, but you can get the pulley on the alternator to perfectly line-up with the pulleys on the engine and pump.
The regulator will require alot of rewiring but the installation instructions are pretty straightforward though my husband couldn't do it on his own (he is easily flustered and even more easily frustrated) so I helped him. Between the two of us, we installed everything ourselves.
We installed it last year so we've only had one season with it -- so far, so good.
And if you don't already have one, consider installing a battery monitor too.
Anyway, hope this stuff helps.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay