Varnish Thinner

[Carl Thunberg]

I finally got around to stripping and sanding the coamings I took off last fall. I have purchased Epifanes gloss varnish, and I'm ready to go. I admit I've never done this before. I've searched this board and found extensive, and very good advice on varnishing. What I haven't found is what type of thinner should you use? Epifanes makes a varnish thinner, but it's wicked expensive. I'm not one to skimp on materials, but I'm also not one to throw my money away needlessly. Can I use pure spirits of gum turpentine that I can buy at my local hardware store? Any other suggestions?

Carl

[Richard Bell]

Try a product called Penetrol. It will thin the varnish so that it goes on without brushmarks and smooths out flat. Put your varnish in the container you will use to dip your brush and then add the Penetrol in tablespoons until you get the consistency you desire. Usually like milk. For clean up and the intitial coat thin the varnish with regular lacquer thinner to the same consistency.

Something I have tried recently and found works very well. Use West System 105/207 for the first four coats. Then apply the varnish with the penetrol (as many coats as you can stand). You will end up with a very nice finish, as well as good waterproofing. It is not difficult, follow the instructions, practice on some extra wood and insure you heat or apply the west system at the woods warmest temperature of the day.

Good luck.



Rick

[Sandy D.]

Carl,
I use Penetrol every day at work to thin oil paint,I've never used it with varnish though,so I can't speak for that application.

I either use mineral spirits,or gum turps.(the latter will really stink you out.)

Check out Epiphanies web sight FAQ.
Always remember the seven P's
Proper
Prier
Preparation
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Production

Follow the directions,you will be fine as long as your preparations were adiquit. Don't worry about brush strokes,if you put on enough varnish it will level itself.

Dust is your enimie #1.Clean your brushes very well(use foam if you wish)

The more coats you apply the deeper the finish gets. Have fun and don't forget about ventilation.

-Sandy

[tartansailor]

Carl,
You really have to be more specific, and state exactly what is the resin component of the varnish you are using. Assuming that it is a urethane, then, is it aliphatic? or aromatic? or is it a [modified!!!]There is a difference, and it is important.
Actually the cheaper solvents are not really solvents, but diluents. If you want to keep your solids high for fewer coats, and yet get the viscosity down, you want a solvent, not a diluent.

Now the cheapest solvent out there is acetone, like $0.10 or 10 cents a pound when I was working 5 years ago. For hevens sake go very light using that stuff because although it is a fantastic solvent, it evaporates so rapidly it will cause what paint Chemists' call "blush" Blush happens when there is any humidity, causing a drop in temperature, and moisture condensing in the film giving it a white hue. Now the paint job is ruined.

There are other varnishes, like the traditional phenolic varnish that over time chemists have improved its qualities immensely. That is my favorite if anyone makes it anymore. Or maybe it's a tung oil varnish? or an alkyd phenolic?

Bottom line, follow the manufacturers directions. IMHO.

Dick

[Tim Mertinooke]

Buy the thinner they recommend, you will be amazed how far that little container will go. I have gone through three quarts of Epifanes Clear Gloss over the past two years varnishing all the teak on my Ty. I followed their instructions to a "T" and I still have about 1/5 of the thinner left. If you are putting all the time it takes to prep the wood before the first coat and then the time it takes to prep between coats, it will be a small price to pay to do it right. Of course Epifanes recommends their thinner, their a business and would benefit from your purchase. Their thinner though, is made specifically for their varnish and you will find talking with those with experience, that that makes a difference. Great product, good luck. Tim

[img]http://www.saillesson.com/images/Close- ... eeting.jpg[/img]

[Gary M]

Carl,

I've done a lot of varnish work, and I admit, I have a five foot rule. If it looks good from five feet it is good! Each varnish job has it's flaws that will be corrected on the next varnish job that has it's flaws. The smaller the boat the better chance perfection is.

I've been using Epifanes and like it. A pro on the docks told me I should use brushing liquid instead of solvents because it doesn't evaporate as quickly. I switched to 333 and I've been using it for about five years with good results.

Be patient, and prep is everything.

Also, I've had good luck with throw away brushes. Just spend a few minutes pulling out loose bristles before your start.

Gary

[Carl Thunberg]

Dick, just to close the loop on this, Epifanes clear gloss varnish is phthalic modified linseed - 64% Tung oil & alkyd resin, 0.5% U.V. absorbers, 0.4% metallic naphthenates, and 35.1% solvents consisting of aliphatic & aromatic hydrocarbons.

I appreciate everyone's input. My guess is that everyone is probably right, and I'd get satisfactory results with any of them. So, what's it gonna be? Penetrol, Brushing Liquid, Gum Turpentine, or bite the bullet and follow Tim's advice and buy the Epifanes thinner. I'm leaning toward the Epifanes thinner, now that I know it goes so far, unless of course Dick comes back with another suggestion.

Carl

[tartansailor]

Hi Carl,
The aliphatic would probably be MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) and the aromatic would probably be toluene. That is an estimate based alkyd resins.

The reason paint formulators blend solvents, and the above are good solvents, is to:

allow quick viscosity build (using a fast evaporator) to minimize the chance of the paint running,

and a slow evaporator like toluene or xylene so that the brush strokes would have time to level out.

A top quality finish might have as many as 4 different solvents so that the above, plus air bubble removal and leveling would be expected.

There are other ingredients that also function toward the above objectives.

Getting the proportions right is what Chemists do.

If you paint on a level surface where there is no chance of running, than it really does not matter what you use within reason of course.

Let us know how you make out.

Dick

[Oswego John]

[ For clean up and the intitial coat thin the varnish with regular lacquer thinner to the same consistency. ???

Hi all,

I've arrived at a fairly ripe old age by following a few simple rules of life. Follow instructions completely, obey orders from those superior in rank, obey traffic laws in small rural towns (especially having NYS license plates), keep a low profile on the horizon and laugh (at least smile) at the bosses attempt at humor. Most importantly, never mention to the one you love, her age, her weight or her hair. Trust me on this, the others are debatable.

I've been told that the instructions to suceed in a good boat paint or varnish job is something like keeping the Ten Commandments You don't keep most of them and ignore a few. It has been said that a good boat finish is 90% preparation and 10% application during good conditions and weather. You cant take precautions with most of the prep and ignore a few of the tried and proven rules. Ignore one or more of the rules and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the results. Then the 30 foot rule might apply.

Every can of paint, varnish, or finish of your choice has instructions printed on the back which apply to the particular product inside that can. Much has been invested in R&D arriving at fhe formula being used and other particulars for it's successful application. You can deviate from the rules if you choose, it's your call. Keep in mind that superior products don't come cheap, why mess with the recipe for success.

The jury is still out concerning using lacquer thinner with varnish. I have never used it to thin varnish or any alkyd product. I have used it to thin and clean lacquer products. Can it be used successfully to thin varnish, or is it a typo or maybe an oversight? I simply don't know the answer.

Think spring

O J

[Tom Keevil]

You really won't use all that much of the thinner. When you consider the money you have already invested in the varnish and the time invested in the prep, it seems foolish to experiment with somone else's solvent. As pointed out above, solvents are complex mixtures, and have different characteristics. Probably another mix would work ok, but if it doesn't you will really regret being back at the beginning again.