Jib/Genoa Sheets

[Clay Stalker]

Hi all:

Time to replace jib halyards. I have read some posts about the benefits of one continuous line pulled throught the jib and used as both sheets. This seems like a good idea on Yankee Lady as the slot between the staysail and jib is small and the bowlines I have used sometimes get hung up. Has anyone used two separate sheets with a small eye splice on the sail end, that way if something happened to one sheet, the other would still be okay? Would appreciate your comments and opinions...Thanks.

Clay Stalker

[jerryaxler]

I use a simple splice whose name is escaping me. Basically you open the inner and outer braid and pass the end of the line through it after passing it through the cringle, close the loop to appropriate size then open the braid on the other line and pass the second end through. No knot, very smooth but is now permanently attached to sail

[Steve Laume]

Clay I have dealt with bowlines this past season and they do hang up sometimes. I am replacing a bunch of lines this year but the jib sheets are not to be among them. I was wondering if they were put through the clew then stitched and siesed if that would be strong enough to hold for a couple of seasons. The advantage to this would be that it would be easier than splicing double braid for me. They could also be cut lose with a minimal loss of length. This would make it easy to end for end them. I got some new line to start out with one piece for my genoa sheets. I could then shift the center back and forth then cut and siese to change ends. I got some new XL and XLS line from the New London, West Marine for 1/2 price. They said they don't sell much of it so they are closing out the stock, Steve.

[Oswego John]

Hi Guys,

I don't think that there is much to be gained by using separate jib sheets. Most people in my area, including myself, use a one piece sheet attached to the jib with a larkshead knot.

The larkshead is a low profile knot that hardly ever gets hung up on anything.. If any wear should ever show up, the knot can easily be moved to one side or the other. As a last resort, the knot can be severed and the two sections can be moved end to end for two sheets at a later time.

The larkshead seems to be favored by racers and singlehanders.
FWIW

O J

[Dean Abramson]

Steve,

It seems to me that the way it probably hangs up the most, is at the crotch (for want of a better term), the junction of the bitter end tail and the standing part. My bowlines on the big genny sometimes do that on the shrouds, and I have though about just wrapping tape to seize those parts together and continue down the sheet just a bit to taper the taping, so as to streamline the knot. Inelegant, but might help. I never got around to doing it, partly because I sometimes get my sheets crossed, and once the sail is up, the quick fix is to untie the lazy sheet, so the tape would be a nuisance.

But you don't cross your sheets up, right?

Dean

[Neil Gordon]

Lots of references to lark's head knots warn against slip unless both parts bear an equal load. Obviously the loads aren't equal when one sheet is lazy. Is this a non-problem for genoa sheeting?

[Jim Davis]

I've been using this for more decades than I want to count and not had a problem. To me it has always been the easy and simple solution. The only drawback is that for practical reasons, each sail needs its own set of sheets. This is not something you want to have to tie in a forced headsail change, but you don't want to have to tie anything when you are doing a sail change.

[Oswego John]

Hi Neil,

I try to never say never. Anything can happen, so says Mr Murphy. It seems that if I say (never) about something, that's when something will happen for the first time in history.

That being said, I'll go on record and say that a bowline, tied correctly, will (never) slip. I'm just saying that for many years I have (never) seen a larkshead on a jib slip or loosen, either.

The design of the knot is such that when there is tug on either leg, pressure is applied to the binder to hinder slipping.

I don't think it is necessary, but if in doubt, one can give the bend a second flip and create a catspaw which will (never, guaranteed) slip and still maintain a low profile.

A person should use the knot that he has confidence in. He's the one who has to live with and rely on it. It's a matter of choice.

Think spring,

O J

[Oswego John]

Jim Davis,

I have used a single sheet attached to a long shackle with the larkshead knot. This way you can use only one sheet with several headsails. The shackle pin passes through the clew grommet.

O J

[Andy Denmark]

I'm a firm believer in "no splices wherever a good knot can be used." The only splice on any of my boats is in the business end of the 3-strand anchor rode.

A workable answer to jibsheets hanging up on the shrouds is to tie bowlines of different lengths so the knots are not side by side. (If you tack correctly this isn't a problem anyway.) As for changing sails, it is a simple matter to untie/retie a bowline simply and fast (as long as you don't use the rabbit-tree-hole method). This is a safety issue as well. Most offshore racers use tied-in jibsheets.

Tying bowlines in the ends of lines under load is a fairly common occurence offshore. It's good to know how to do this. Tying a bowline around yourself in a line trailing astern might one day save your life (or at least keep your body attached to the boat.)

Splices pose many problems, not the least of which is finding something to do with wet jib sheets when bagging a sail. Knots don't get wedged into sheaves or blocks like splices sometimes do, and changing from regular to light air jibsheets sheets is possible, an especially useful ability if you sail where the air gets light. Splices in braid under loading will eventually slip and sometimes even come unspliced. Braided anchor rodes with spliced-in thimbles come unspliced all too frequently. Spliced docklines are next to useless if you are in a hurry or have to adjust the length of the spliced end on a cleat.

While splices may look clean and neat, functionally I think they are inferior to the appropriate knot in most instances.

I'm sure there are many other opinions -- this is just mine.
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TRITEC ENGINE

[Neil Gordon]

The primary advantage of splice over knot is maintaining a higher working/breaking load. Splices leave about 90% while with a knot you can lose about half. (It varies by type of knot.)

Long splices will closely maintain line diameter and so will run through a block, so if you have time on your hands, you can make a longer line out of two or more shorter ones. (In my lifetime, I've never done this.)

For most applications, breaking strength is not an issue. Genoa sheets are usually oversized so they can be handled. I would suppose more lines fail due to chafe than to load.

[Andy Denmark]

Neill, you are right about the relative strengths of splices vs. knots, at least according to the books and literature. But in my lifetime of boating I've never seen any reasonably sized, intact line break under tension while in use (except a huge hawser between tug and tow). A knot would be the logical place for it to do so, however. I have seen braid splices pull out, though, both in anchor rodes and jib sheets. I have also seen a splice in a main halyard get jammed in the sheave at the masthead -- not a pretty picture.

I don't believe a splice in 3-strand can "pull out" like one in braided line.

As for long splices, I have tried to make a few but can never get them down to a size that would run through a block or sheave. This may be possible but I can't manage it.

Certainly, chafe points are prime places for any line to break. All it takes is a minor chafe to initiate breakage at that point when max loading is encountered. I once had to cut a 1-1/2" jibsheet under load on a big catamaran (winch override) and all that was needed was to barely touch it with a knife blade. It exploded like a shotgun going off.

I have wondered about breaking where lines are made fast to cleats. Is there test data for this? The weak point would probably be where the line makes the first 180 degree turn at the horn. But what about Clam Cleats, sheet stoppers, etc? Would a piece of line be subject to notch stress failure where it is compressed by cams or something like a self-tailing cleat?

It's hard to imagine where one might see this kind of loading on an average sailboat, though. Just thinking out loud here.
________
Chrysler newport

[Neil Gordon]

Good points and perhaps something that Practical Sailor should test.

From what I've read, knots reduce breaking strength because they turn on a narrow radius. The fibers on the inside of the turn and on the outside can't share the load equally and the breaking strength is, accordingly, reduced. I don't know how that translates to turns around a cleat, etc.

I would suspect that a cam cleat grabs the outside fibers but allows stretch to the inside fibers. That would create unequal fiber loading, as well.

Anyone familiar with tests that might have been conducted?

[Serge Zimberoff]

There are a couple of reasons that I end up with two pieces of line as jib or genoa sheets rather than one continuous one. One is that sooner or later I end up with good line that is too short for anything else. Also there are boats that I take inexperienced crew with often. Then it is nice to have a starboard sheet that has green in it and a port sheet that has red in it for obvious reasons.
overall I like the larkshead myself, but if someone is concerned about it or has similar reasons to mine noted above, then the buntline would be the knot of choice for these sheets (per Brian Toss). It is smaller than a bowline so hangs up less.
Serge