Fuel questions

[Larry DeMers]

I know everyone has been saying that there are no differences between the two diesel fuels, but there is. To be sure, I contacted my marine mechanic regarding this question.
The clear fuel is for road use, is taxed, and has chemicals in it to provide sufficient cetane for road use. It assumes that the engine is relatively new, and is designed with harder valve seats to stand the impact of combustion without Sulphur, which this fuel has been scrubbed of.

The non taxed, red dyed fuel is for off road use, also marine use. The fuel has higher sulfur content which meets the engine requirements of your diesel better than the taxed fuel. It softens the impact of your engines' valves with the valve seat for one thing, and unless the engine is relatively new, this is actually needed to help it run smoothly and well.

Protect your engine investment, as it is the highest priced item on your boat. Currently, a used Volvo MD7B is being installed for around $10k, according to my marina owner who has around 120 rebuilt engines in his machine shop, and sells them to the marinas doing the replacements.
A new replacement would be another 4-5k on top of that. This is for an old 13hp motor!

Good Sailing,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 sailing Lake Superior

I'm thinking about relocating my mooring to a place that doesn't have a fuel dock and I'm wondering about the logistics of keeping the tank filled. We have a Yanmar 8 diesel.
1. I read that the only difference between auto diesel and marine diesel are taxes and dye. Is that right? -- so if I don't mind paying a little extra to avoid having to motor to a port with a fuel dock I shouldn't have a problem?
2. I'm wondering about the safety of keeping an emergency fuel supply in a secondary plastic can aboard. Do other folks do that as a matter of course? In general I try to keep explosive things to a minimum on the boat.

[Dean Abramson]

Thanks, Larry. I did not realize that.

I usually fill up at marine facilities anyway, but I have added gas-station diesel on occasion. I'll stop that.

[Kevin Kaldenbach]

It is my understanding that in 2007 off road diesel had to meet the same requirements of 500 ppm sulfur as on road diesel. Further more, shoot me if I am wrong, sulfur in diesel has more to do with lubrication for the cylinder walls and internal parts of the injector pumps then anything else.

Except for my motorcycle all I drive are diesels. A couple of old ones included. I do not put additives into my fuel. Crap, the reasoning I have received about diesel being higher priced then gas these days is because of the cost associated with removing the sulfur and still maintaining the lubricity in the fuel. Considering that we live in the sticks and have to drive a ways to get anywhere we have put some miles on our vehicles since 2007. We have not experienced any problems with using the new diesel, but you make up your own mind.

So have I seen any adverse effects from the new diesel? Yes. The old Lucas CAV injectors commonly found on a lot of older diesels including Perkins have been known to leak externally where the throttle and the kill levers mount to the pumps. It was not uncommon to see fuel weeping at these spots but after 2007 my shop has been hit with a rash of pumps bleeding at these spots. So yes there is a difference but it has not effected the Bosch injection pumps on my VW’s and Cummins as it has on some Lucas pumps.

[Maine Sail]

Currently non-highway diesel is 500 ppm sulfur content and it used to be 3000 ppm. In 2010, next year, non-highway diesel will need to begin meeting the same standards as road diesel which is currently 15 ppm sulfur content. No matter what you WILL be running 15 ppm sulfur content diesel in your boat within a year or so.

I have been mixing ULSD and marine for a few years, since about 2007, with no ill effects. It does seem to run better on the road stuff and burns cleaner too. Additive packages have been added to ULSD to address the lubricity issues. There are plenty of "old" diesels out there running ULSD with no issues. My neighbor, a real eccentric type, drives a early eighties Mercedes diesel wagon with over 500,000 miles on it. He has been running ULSD in this car and it has caused zero problems that he needs to wash the back of it less..

[Oswego John]

This is a great thread. I'm really enjoying the different perspectives. Since I have a few pennies jingling in my jeans pocket, let me toss them into the kitty.

What I have to add might be considered a little off subject, but then again, maybe not. I bet a dollar to a donut that very few have thought about this additive and many more have never heard of it.

I'm talking about castor oil. Yuck. Yep, the rotten stuff your mother gave you as a spring tonic to ward off the evils out there in the world. It also happens to be one of the slickest, oiliest stuff on this face of the earth.

Right before and just after WW II, midget auto racing was very popular. Some guys ran two cycle engines and added castor oil to the fuel. It added a distinct odor to the air around the oval. We ran a small block 60 HP Ford V8. 50:50 ratio of castor oil to regular racing oil. The arrival of the superior Offenhauser block to racing helped kill the sport. The little guy, the backbone of the sport, couldn't afford the Offy so midget racing died.

Top end rpms would heat the oil and engine to a very high heat. We had sodium filled valves to avert warping. Because of extremely high rpms, we used extra tension valve springs to prevent valve flutter or floating valves. The extra tension quickened the valve reseating itself for the the next cycle. Our biggest headache was wrist pin failure.

Even today with the marvels of synthetic oil, under super heavy duty high heat compression, synthetic oil has, on occasion, broken down and boiled on the metallic surfaces.

One of the ideosyncracies of castor oil, unlike regular oil which when heated, thins out and loses some lubricity, castor oil actually improves its viscosity up until the point that it gets so hot it turns to varnish and the engine disintegrates.

It has been so long ago since I've been active, I might be surprised what oils are on the market today. All I know is that I'm from the old school and if something worked well for me, then I'll have to think two or three times before this old dog learns new tricks.

Have a super weekend and holiday.
Thank a vet.
O J

[Neil Gordon]

I bet a dollar to a donut ...

Careful, OJ. I found this on the web, posted in February:

Last Thursday I was on Court Street in Brooklyn. I stopped at Dunkin' Donuts for a snack. I was shocked to see the price of a doughnut was now 75 cents. Then yesterday, my wife and I stopped at a Dunkin' Donuts for a drink, this time on Brighton Beach Avenue. The cost of a Boston creme? This time it was 83 cents.

Another price increase or two and you'll be saying, "I'll bet a donut to a dollar..."

Is castor oil the super secret additive in Marvel Mystery Oil?

[WaywardWind]

Castor oil was superior engine engine for decades. It was only in the 1970's that synthethic oils began to lubricate as well as castor oil. The racers began to change over partly for the cost of castor oil, and mostly because castor oil is quite dirty, crudding up exhaust passages quickly. Also, by the mid 1970's, mineral began to be pretty good compared to castor oil.

A note is that WWI airplanes ran on *gallons* of expensive castor oil because the engines "lasted" (lasted is a relative term) longer. The airplane engines used so much castor oil in flight that pilots wore silk scarves (silk better at filtering out the airborne oil mist behind the engines than wool or any other available fabric) for oil protection. The pilots also worn diapers, because the silk scarves didn't filter out all the airborne oil.

[Neil Gordon]

A note is that WWI airplanes ran on *gallons* of expensive castor oil because the engines "lasted" (lasted is a relative term) longer. The airplane engines used so much castor oil in flight that pilots wore silk scarves (silk better at filtering out the airborne oil mist behind the engines than wool or any other available fabric) for oil protection.

I had heard that the silk scarves were used as protection from the rough wool of the coats pilots were wearing to keep warm at altitute. Turning their heads this way and that to watch for bad guys would rub their necks raw. Then they'd stop turning their heads. Then they'd get shot down.

[WaywardWind]

Wool is dramatically warmer than silk. If warmth without chafe were the issue, pilots would have worn the silk as a first layer, with wool over that for warmth.

When I lived in Cold Country, in the winter I often wore (thin) dress socks for looks over (warm) wool socks while wearing business suits.

A WWI fighter plane might spray several gallons of castor oil into the air behind the engine and in front of the pilot during the course a couple hours in the air. Hence the silk, hence the diapers.

[Warren S]

I won't disagree with Wayward, but I still have 2 scarves my father had whilst driving P-47's over the Rhine. The standard issue was a silk job with a map of France silkscreened on it to be used in case he was shot down (great collector's item)! He preferred to wear a silk strip he tore out of an orange parachute thinking he could wave it at passing search parties. Thankfully he was never shot down, and us kids ended up with a closet full if mementos. Silk was the way to go for chafe reasons.

[sfreihofer]

It continually amazes me...
All the things I didn't know,
Until I bought a Cape Dory!

[Neil Gordon]

My uncle's WWII scarf came with this story:

He was in England and the base he was on grew so large it surrounded several English towns. The men were all off fighting the war, of course, so these were towns filled with women. Add to that the notion that silk was a rationed commodity.

So... steal one parachute. An acre of silk will get you one English girlfriend in no time. Small section used to make him a scarf, the rest she uses for assorted unmentinables.

[mattlydon]

the silk square with the maps printed on them were specifically for ditching. I have two (no relatives attached - got 'em at a garage sale as a kid) with sections of mainland china on them.

Matt

[Sea Hunt]

Matt:

I would hold on to those scarfs. They may be VERY rare. It is possible they belonged to the pilots who flew the bombing raid over Tokyo in April (?) 1942 as part of Col. Doolittle's operation. I think they flew B 25s off a modified carrier. Their plan was to land in China after the raid and be rescued by Chinese nationals who then hated the Japanese. The Chinese maps may well have been for land navigation once on the ground, assuming they did not make it to an airfield - many did not.

Neil:

I like your Uncle a lot Very creative. However, I am confident your uncle did not "steal" any parachutes as erroneously suggested in your post. He may have "requisitioned" a parachute that was not otherwise being used at that time and then, noticing that someone had inadvertently cut a rectangular piece out of the canopy, determined it was no longer servicable for its primary mission but could be deployed in a secondary mission status to assist our British sisters in arms, who, we might observe, actively supported the war effort by providing all manner of food, housing, clothing, etc. Simply stated, this was solely an effort at international good will and I am sure was effective in attaining its strategic objectives.

[Neil Gordon]

Simply stated, this was solely an effort at international good will and I am sure was effective in attaining its strategic objectives.

Sure, but being in the Air Corps, he was hardly as adept at international good will as those in the Navy.